Guest: Steven Janofsky

It's another wild Wednesday as I'm joined at my kitchen table by Steven Janofsky. Steven is my former co-worker who became a close friend of the family.  He tends to be relatively private, so when he said he’d come have a yap on the podcast, I thought he'd have some pretty strict guardrails.  He surprised the hell out of me by keeping nothing back.  He talks about things like his ADD (he's old, and that's what it was called back in the 1900s), the solid and nurturing foundation of the Jewish community in his childhood, and being alone versus being lonely.

He does paint every college roommate he had as a maniac, which sounds suspect.  And he admits that he was not a good nerd for a computer guy.  But buckle up, because he also spills some piping hot tea!

Intro riff by Dale Lytle (concert husband).

All content edited (I use that term very loosely) by Karen Shaak.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

At My Kitchen Table was on the road for this latest episode with Steven Janofsky. Steven isn't typically super open about himself, so I was truly surprised and honored when he said he'd come have a yap on the podcast. He talks about things like his ADD, which is what it was called way back in the pre-technicolor black and white days of his youth, the scenic route he took through college, and becoming more introverted over the years. For those of you who know Steven, there will be obvious silliness mixed in with the seriousness, but you gotta buckle up because Steven also spilled some pretty hot tea. You guys are gonna go out for a cigar afterwards? Freeze your giblets off.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

It should be in the 40s by the time you go out. Yeah. I was just shocked how uh how much the temp dropped. I mean, we knew it was gonna drop still large.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Yeah. It was pretty bad though.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

We're really part of Maryland up here.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Kind of. We're only like four miles. Right. Four miles over the road line. Yeah, it's yeah. Cool. All right. Well, then let's dive in. And before we start actually just chatting today, I ask that you share a little bit about who you are for the sake of the teabags. I knew that would get you.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Uh my name is Steve. And uh Steve and what? What's your fun name? They don't need to know the whole thing. I'm you know, I might be in the witness protection program. Fair enough. Um what do you want to know? Uh I was born and raised in the state of New York, upstate New York, actually way upstate in Geneva, New York, which is the finger, I think it's the finger legs. Uh my father was uh stationed in the army. And when he came out of dental school, he was served, he was uh treating servicemen coming back from Vietnam. So I was born in Geneva, New York, and lived in Rome. I didn't know this because I was like not even a year old. And uh everybody asks, you know, everybody asked where you're from, and I said, Well, New York. And they said, Where you're where your parents are from? I said, Brooklyn. He goes, Why didn't you grow up in Brooklyn? I said, My father didn't want to raise us in Brooklyn. My cousins were raised in Brooklyn, and they're fine. I don't understand. What did he think was gonna be the I don't I don't know, maybe he saw a decline in in Brooklyn, but where they were where they lived in Brooklyn, Sheepsead Bay and Brighton Beach? I don't I don't know. There was something maybe because of his upbringing. His upbringing was there's a whole story behind that too, but it it didn't really matter. So we were raised in Newburgh, New York, which is like an hour north up from Manhattan, right on the Hudson. Yeah. And uh what's interesting is that uh, you know, if you're in this boroughs and in New York, there's there's a big influence of people because there's so many ethnicities and and cultures and stuff. But where I grew up, it was very similar to that. Yes, it was it was like a suburb and everything, but the town itself, the high school was huge and a mix of people was huge, you know. I don't know, went went to high school there, went to went to multiple colleges. We'll get to that. Couldn't find my way.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

We'll get to that.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Still looking, still looking, still trying to figure out who I am, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Right. Um and what do you do for a living?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

I always tell people I'm a programmer because if you tell them you're a developer, if you tell certain people a developer, they think it's real estate. I'm like, and I said that to someone one time smoking a cigar in a cigar lounge, and you say, Oh, you dude real estate. I'm like, wrong developer programmer, which is kind of narrow now, but uh I've been doing that a bit well, I've been doing computers since I was 12, and so people know I was born in 69.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

You just wanted to say 69, I didn't want a reason to say. I'm waiting for someone in the background to go exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

But they're not gonna do that. But just so point of ref point of context is that I was born in 69. I was born three months before landing on the moon, which is kind of interesting. But I grew up during the PC revolution, and people remember the PC revolution in your 50s. It's like PCs weren't even a thing, and they just started coming out in the early early late 970s, early 80s. So I've been doing doing computers since I was 12, um 57 as of a couple weeks ago.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

So I still say programmer because it's just easier to you say computer things, like that could be like 5,000 things. My brother does computer things too, but we do the complete opposite things, totally different things. Oh, it's it's an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

But I like to just say IT. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Yeah, that's it's like a nice thing about it. That actually triggers me, but that's beside the point.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Um, there are lots of things I say that trigger you, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

I'm triggered right now, being triggered.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

There you go. In fact, let's do the the original trigger. Um if you could tell everybody how we met. How do I know you, Steven?

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Uh Karen and I, well, I I I in 2010 I started working for a company called Spire, and I was like the 11th employee.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

What I love about that, by the way, total, we'll just put a pin in that for one second. My favorite thing when I talk to any of our people from Spire is that almost to a person, everybody can refer to themselves as the number, the employee number that they were. I love it. Um, so startup guys, startup, very small.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

And the three partners, P B and Jay, Paul, Brian, and Jim. I worked for them previously in the previous company years before. And through through time, we were required.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Well, you don't have to talk about the acquisition.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

No, I know, but I thought it was a timeline. It was like 2012, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

When you ended 2012, when we when I started, it was January 2013.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

So day logic was already there. No, no, they weren't there. It was a year. Well, we were I was a year and then and then again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember someone said something to me. Someone said I said something, someone said something to me about bacon, and I said, I love bacon. And then someone, I don't remember someone said, You know, you're not supposed to like bacon. I said, Yeah, I'm a Jew that likes bacon. And then you you happened you honed in on the Jew that likes bacon, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I did.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

And that's how I don't remember what you said though. That's kind of weird. Yeah. It was something funny. You're not supposed to like bacon.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

I actually think I popped my head out. It was my first day.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

What about bacon or did you?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

It was my first day in the office. So what we because I was an on-site, and so I just did a week of training in Connecticut, and then I was, you know, on my own at the client. So I got to meet everybody in the office that first week. So it was day one, and I'm posted up in this empty office getting my computer set up and waiting for a meeting with the next person who's gonna come in and train me on stuff. And you were actually, because your ADD makes it so that you can't just sit still in the office, you're like out at the cubicles just chatting with everybody, and yeah, you were talking about um liking bacon, and you had just like either you or somebody else had just made a comment referencing the fact that you're Jewish. And I think I popped my head out and was like, You can't, I was like, what the fuck kind of Jew are you? Like that, because you ate it.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I'm like the bacon liking Jew.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yes. And and then that was our that was our that was the beginning of it.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

And it's been downhill ever since.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Just rapidly downhill. Yes, and a lot of bacon later, and a lot of bacon later.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

So people don't know now I am Jewish.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

So Steven's Jewish.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

I'm the token Jewish friend, yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Although you say that, but I've done 23andMe, and I'm like 0.9% Ashkenazi Jew, so I'm part of the tribe.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

That's what I'm saying. We we don't discriminate, we take all members.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

That's what I'm saying. So here we are.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

We don't even have a special handshake yet.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

But you also laughed your ass off when I tried to tell you I was part of the tribe, and you were like, No, you're not.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

I've changed my tune.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

So let's go back to childhood for a minute. What kind of a kid were you? What kind of kid? What kind of student? Like, did you make friends easily? Like, did you like school?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Uh so even though we, my brother and I, my brother's four years younger than my, even though my brother and I grew up outside of the city, uh, and I met we all everybody knows now I'm Jewish. My parents' friends, a lot of them were almost all of them were Jewish in the neighborhood I grew up in, in the synagogue, and in the synagogue and temple, I can explain all this, but they're like not even a five-minute walk apart. Okay. One was Orthodox, one was reformed, you know, and we were in the Orthodox one, even though we weren't raised Orthodox. But a lot of the friends, because of my parents' friends, became my friends, like all the kids became friends. So I had friends in the neighborhood. Um, it wasn't until and I was I made friends pretty easily, and we were outdoor kids. My brother and I were outdoor kids. My mother, typical latch key, you know, we would be outside all day. My mother had to yell for us to come in to go eat dinner. Yeah. And at the top of her lungs, like every mother in the neighborhood. So we were outdoor kids and we were always playing something in the street or doing something stupid. Even after discovering computers, I still was an outside kid. Yeah. Still was I wasn't a typical geeky nerdy kid. And I'll give it a maybe a slight example. So in I think it was in high school, junior high school. I think it was in high school. I had a lot of friends or people guys I knew, people I knew that played Dungeons and Dragons. I had no interest.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Really?

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Nope. Never played it.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

You're a shitty nerd.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

I'm terrible.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Turns out you're not a good Jew.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

And you're not a good nerd.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

I'm triggering myself. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

I'm sorry, continue. You did not like Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

No, no, I never played it.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Because the the the the crowd I I became friendly with was just not their thing. And even the three guys, Peter Wayne, and and Matt, the three the three of us were always hanging out in high school and then a little bit after. We we never it was just nothing we did.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

It just never came up. And I had no interest. So fast forward a bunch of years, there's a lot of guys I know, or like the father of my god, my goddaughters and Jim, who's a friend, you know, Jim. They they do 40k, which is tabletop, and they try to get me into it. And I just didn't have the interest. And it was Biz had figured it out. He's like, you don't really want to do this. I go, I I like the modeling aspect, but I don't want to do anything else. It's just too much. And and because of the ADD, I had like instant gratification, so I wasn't playing video games. But my uh but my my my childhood was pretty normal.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

I mean Were you close with your parents? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Especially my father. My brother wasn't close to my mother, and I was close to my father.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

But you guys were pretty tight-knit family, period, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you were a kid.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Every summer my father would take my brother and I on like a one or two week, usually two weeks. One week we'd be camping, one week we'd be fishing. And then we got old enough. My brother looked at our, we looked at each other and went, we don't want to go camping anymore. So we turned to dad and said, Can we just go fishing? He goes, Thank God. Like we and it was fun, but we rather just sit in a boat. And he just took us fishing up until like 15 or 17, and we kept going. And then learned how to drive it, and it was downhill from there. But I had a pretty good childhood. The friend groups were tight-knit. Uh my brother and I were four years apart, so we weren't that close. We're closer now, probably, because we're older. I was always close to my father. My mother, my brother was close to my mother. So we still had we picked up as very similar things, but brother just gravitated my mother for some reason, just different personalities.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Sure. Was college sort of a natural path to you?

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Well, it was natural because I was forced into it.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Well, that's what I mean. Like, was it something you was saying? No, it was expected. It was expected. But it was expected. No, it was expected.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Because my father, I think, graduated dental school in 65. And he, you know, he served in the army as a captain, but treating he was it's like a it's like the uh residency for denters. A couple when he came out of dental school. He opened a practice in Newburgh, and then he opened it, he he bought his own building. And I'm just wanting to paint the picture to instead of taking a mortgage to buy the property building and like fix it up to be in the oh, I guess it was already a dental office. My grandparents made loans to him and my aunt, Sally, who's my father brought father's sister.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

And so they bought a house. My father bought a building for the practice, right? And then instead of paying back to a bank, they paid back to a trust, and the trust paid for college for me and my brother, and my two cousins, Karen and Jenny. So the education push was with my grandmother who worked for Brooklyn College for 25 years.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Okay. So smart lady.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah, I don't in actuality, I don't remember, but I don't think she actually went to college herself. But she worked there for 25 years. So she understood the value of education.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

So no matter what I was doing, even though I screwed up coming out of school, I didn't want to say screwed up, but we can go into the college thing too. But we're good. We will, we will. But the the push for education was my parents were educated. You know, my mother was trained as a teacher, even though she hated kids, sometimes including my brother and I. And my father's obviously was a dentist, but he didn't know he just as interesting as just like I was, he didn't know he wanted to be a dentist till senior, junior year.

unknown 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

He was screwing off in college, just like I screwed off in college.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

And then once he had the focus, he buckled down and got A's through everything and then A's through telescope.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Which I think makes sense. It's funny because I I know it's a topic that has come up a bit. I know I've talked about it a little bit here and there on the podcast, but that whole expectation that we have on kids when they come out of high school to just know what they want to do, and some do, which is great for them, but there are so many who don't. But I feel like there were kids, you're a little bit older than I am, but not like by a lot.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

No. The expectation is still there for a certain generation.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

It is, but I also think that generation of parents, I it feels like the expectation was put on from them onto their kids because that was right around the time that we started to almost quote look down on blue-collar jobs. There was this push, like you like your parents made you feel like, well, of course you have to go to college because that's you don't want to be a plumbing. You don't want to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Now they make more money than most of us. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Dumb as hell. But that was sort of that was the the thing, it was part of the culture at the time. And so I think you found a lot of kids going into college, not knowing what they wanted to do, taking on debt.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

And my father had a patient. I forgot I I knew his son. I knew the patient's son because we went to high school together, Rob. We were the same age, we graduated at the same time. I went to four-year college, I was not ready.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Once you get away from the house and you you I mean, yeah, I had a lot of different kinds of cultures and ethnicities as friends, but you're away from home. You you meet 12,000. The school had 12,000 when I went, but and they have all this and being ADD doesn't help, but having all this s stimulus, stimuli going on at the same time, you're like, hmm. Rob So I went off to SUNY Binghamton. Rob went and did two years of community college because he didn't know what he wanted to do, but he wanted to go to school. I think his parents wanted to go to school, keep going to school. But he was like, I don't know what I want to do. And his parents like, well, you go to school go to Duchess or something and get a two-year degree. And he did.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

So then he figured it out in two years, and he was his focus was you know, laser.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Whereas I went to school and all of a sudden, oh, look at all the stuff we could do, and someone discovers alcohol. But then it was just wasn't just parting, it was just hanging out and talking to people and everything else. And then the your focus becomes more on the friends and the friends and the farm building exactly than school when if you really did it right, you could do almost equal amounts of both. Sure. And then and get something out of it. Yeah. And yeah, there were some classes like I'll give it a philosophy godnet.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Yeah, philosophy gotten a art history barely past.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Which is interesting now because I like that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Because yeah, you're more into arts and culture and you're not like what I would call a philosopher. So how long did it take you? You because you did not do like a linear four-year past.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

No, I went to I went well, I was I looked at Rochester Institute of Technology. Actually, my father and I drove all the way up there. I think I got oh no, I got accepted. But even then, a private school compared to us uh public school.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

But very expensive.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

It's a massive difference. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

And then I got accepted to Binghamton, which is in the SUNY system. Uh people back then used to say it's like the Harvard of SUNY systems. I don't know about it, I'll go that far. But it's it's it's high up there. Okay. Binghamton has compared to all the other SUNY schools. My father goes, You're going to SUNY, you're going to Binghamton. I'm like, okay. I mean, I didn't have the cost. I'm not going to argue my father. Sure. But I wanted to go into computers and to get into the engineering school, you have to have like perfect high school grades, practically, just like most engineering programs. And I was like, oh, going into business school. Which is a mistake. Because if my focus is supposed to be computers, computer science, or anything in technology related. Yeah, I needed a business side too.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

But I mean it helps if you have the understanding, but that's like that's a couple of classes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

I don't need a I don't need to like to do that. And I whatever happened. But um I got up there and I went through two roommates. My first roommate was a maniac. He left. And then I had another room and a new roommate, Lee. He was a maniac too, but he was a more cooler maniac. So he wrote a motorcycle. Yeah, I forgot the car he had, but it was something I liked. And then one time he said, Go grab something out of one of my drawers. Open a drawer and there's weed in there. And I'm like, What is this? And I never smoked weed. He goes, Don't get mad. Don't get mad. I'm like, okay. Of course he rolled a joint and I was like, Well, I'm screwed. Now I'm I wouldn't say hooked because I don't get hooked on weed. Sure. Damn it. But at the for first year, they'll put you on probation. And then like if your grades aren't, yeah, your first like after like after the semester you go on probation. So it was the second semester, actually, I was on probation. Third, and then into third semester, I went to, I don't know, I moved to a different set of housing. And then I have three roommates, so they were all maniacs as well. Um didn't do that well because that focus was still screwed up. Um and came home. And my father says, You're gonna go to Dutchess community, you're gonna get a two-year degree. I said, Okay, went to Dutchess Community.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

So did you uh stop going to Dutch Community?

SPEAKER_02 17:24

I stopped going SUNY, came home and but like by choice, or were you were I had no choice because my grades were just below I was below what I what we were supposed to have. Yeah. And I forgot what it was. It was just terrible. Yeah. I was like just below to cut it off, and I was like, Okay, yeah, all right, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Academic probation.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, and I was like, oh, fine. So I went to Dutch Community College on Big Epsy, and I got a that's where I met a lot of people. I met some characters, and I also worked at a school newspaper. It was more like the technical, like helping lay out the pages and stuff. So you met a lot of people there, it was like a hangout spot. Yeah, you know, but but the focus was you for you know, you come home from four-year school and education, you still have to get a degree and you start smaller, which means father looked at me and goes, You're getting a two-year degree. I said, Okay, I got the two-year degree. And then he says, now you gotta get a four-year degree. And I said, I don't and I said, Well, how about a business degree slash something else? I'm like, okay. So we went and going to Pace University in uh in Pleasantville, New York. And because I was so far into like the business side of things that I looked at doing accounting, and I'm like, no. Yeah, after a while, I'm like, I can't I can't do just accounting, so I did accounting I can't picture you as an account. No, I could I did accounting information systems, which is really a business IT group thing, it's just more focused on accounting sides, right? So it it that as much as I said it not going engineering in Binghamton didn't help. This actually helped because going out in the world, because I still had a lot of technical stuff I still did.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

But I still had a business side.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

So at any point, so just give me just the quick snapshot. How old were you when you graduated from PACE?

SPEAKER_02 19:02

All right, so I went to Pace in 91 and I officially graduated in 94. I had one course, I screwed up, I had to go back. But I was already already working full-time in 93, so I went back for that one course and in.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

And how but how old were you at that point?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

94, I'd be 25.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Okay. All right. So not, I mean, it didn't like derail you too too far.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

No, but if you actually add up all the out all the years, yeah. If I was supposed to I went to school, I graduated high school in 87. So between 87 and and and 94, I should have gotten like a PhD. If if you just add up the years, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Fair enough. At any point in that time frame, did you did you ever actually get an official ADD diagnosis?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yes. Okay. When I was uh 11 or 12.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Okay, so you had that from the time you were a kid.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Got it. Well, I just wasn't sure about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

We can talk about that right now. So I'm focused on it.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

We don't need to because you're jumping tracks. Don't do that. But no, but I because I know a lot of people will say it because they assume they have it. No, no, no. Sometimes people were diagnosed, like obviously, as a kid, it probably is much more to your benefit to know so that you can sort of create like a plan of how you're gonna move for forward through life. But some people don't get diagnosed until they're adults, and so I was just curious like when that when you I was about 11 or 12.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Okay, maybe 10 or 11. I don't know. My there was a focus problem, I guess, when as I was explained to me.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Yes, by definition, yes, it is um an attention deficit.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yes, yes, so they took me to psychologists and whatever psychiatrists, and they did some tests, I guess. And they what they said that and my father they put you on special diets, like no preservatives and garbage. And they and they there was no meds. As far as I remember, there was no meds, just you know, changed certain things. And what so about that time I was doing like plastic models and stuff, and and um about 13 years old, my parents were members of the Jewish community center. So we had I think camped there when we were kids at times, and then there was a pool, so that uh all the Jewish families would go there like during the summer and be near the pool. And they had activities, and this could leads into what my father figured out um about ADD and me. Someone wanted to do a modeling class, and everybody would build kind of the same model, and they would go through it, and it was kids, like 11, 10, 11, maybe even younger. And somebody it was supposed to be an adult who ran it. My father dropped me off something. There was no one there. There's no adult there. Just a bunch of kids, like five or six or seven kids and me. As far as I remember, what my father told me is that I ran the whole class. Because I was already modeling at that point. I've been modeling for a few years. So I had a paint and stuff. And I and and he said he came to Guy and he said he was watching me, and he said I was having. Helping every kid. Yeah. As if I was an instructor.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

So later on, when I got older, we were talking about the ADD diagnosis. And he says, you know what I figured out? I go, what? He goes, I need to keep you focused, which means you need activity.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah, you have to you need to be productive.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

But that it's really of not a matter of you have to maintain focus through activity. Whatever that is. Usually positive activity. You don't want to do negative activity, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

But you did some of that too. Yeah. Oh yeah, of course. Later on. Of course. Yeah. Let's kind of talk about that. So, I mean, you made friends easily. You had a great community around you. Um, you had like great neighborhood situation and your temple, and you know, the Jewish community obviously is pretty strong. Like you've got great community ties. And college was a little bit of an adjustment, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Um actually, just as an aside, yeah. All the friends in high school, none of them were Jewish. But when I got to high school and then in through high school, I didn't hang out with anybody Jewish.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

There was the high school.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

But foundationally, when you were growing up, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

All my parents, friends, parents' friends were their kids were more.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Right, right, right. What about relationships? Did you start dating when you were in high school? Did you date in college?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Like more in college, I think, as far as I remember.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Okay. How old were you when you had like your first serious relationship? How old were you?

SPEAKER_02 23:24

That was probably Becky in when I was 19. Okay. So not much after high school. Okay. A year after high school.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

All right. And then how old were you when you met your wife?

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Oh, I it was in '93. It was my first full-time job out of school.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah. She lived in the same little apartment building as my boss. And I was hanging out with my boss, and we were introduced because my boss Lance, his wife was friends with Jay, and um we just all hung out.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Gotcha. Okay. So that was a little bit just coming out of college, really. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

It was like right in 93, all that happened at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

How long did you date her before you ended up getting married?

SPEAKER_02 24:07

We dated until 90, summer in 95, July 95, and then we got married.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Wait, yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

And then some some weird.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

We didn't date immediately in the beginning. We were just all hanging out. Just hanging out. And then just kind of worked, you know, we ended up getting closer and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Um, and I don't know if I should say it now, but she was married previously, but her husband's very sick and he passed away.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

So I kind of met her, I met him once, but it wasn't until much after, and I didn't really know the situation. All I heard was that he passed. Um, but we it was a while after he passed that we even started hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Was she older than you?

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Yeah, nine years older than me.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Nine years older. Okay, okay. I was gonna say, because you're saying he was a nice man, and I'm thinking of like 24 or 20.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

He he was older, she was nine years older than me, and he was older than her.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Okay, and so at some point you end up with a pretty serious medical diagnosis. Can you kind of talk through, share, you can share what that was, and then talk through the timeline.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

So let's talk about the 80s and 90s. Yes. And the um A's and HIV and everything else. Everybody thought, including me, that it was a gay disease. Um, and that's the way it was painted in the media now. But even then, you read an article in Newton in a magazine, it's it's the what they call it the gay plague. And naive, naively, I thought, you know, I'm uh white heterosexual guy. I don't I'm not gonna get this, right? Right. And you've and when you're in your 20s, I don't know if women feel this way. Men have a feeling of invincibility, right? We could take on the world and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I think humans do. I think it's like people in general probably do that.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

When you're young, you don't you think you nothing can stop me.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

So, like I said, when I met Jay, she was still married, and Arthur, Arthur was sick, but I didn't know what from at the time.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

So that was her.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

But I think it was liver, he actually was kidney disease too. I think his kidneys were failing.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Arthur passed away, but I knew he was, I was told he was sick, and then I think he had kidney failure. So back then I'm kind of hanging out with still some college friends. I moved to Pleasantville, New York, which is you know, a little basement apartment. So I can sort of driving from Newburgh to Stanford for my first job, which is like 72 miles. I was at least only 20 minutes away. Um, so I still hung out with some people from school a little bit, and some people from work a little bit, and met Jay through my boss, met her husband Arthur through her, uh for but we didn't really hang out. I just was introduced to him. And there's nothing between me and Jay. I mean, there's nothing going on. And then I hear that Arthur passed away, and then and we started hanging out, hanging out, hanging out, and then eventually we s I don't know if we got together, I don't know what was happening, but before we did anything, she told me she was positive, HIV positive. And I'm like, okay, typical young, dumb guy, okay, yeah, didn't register. Even after all the information, no, what happens is that it was always thought that a man gives it to a woman or man gives it to a person, and not and not the other way, and that's not true. We all know that's not true. It's just it's it's it's blood or fluid or whatever it is, it's transmitted, you know, that way. But back then, it was like the possibility of getting it from a woman is nothing.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Right, like it's not a thing, okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

But and just be very candid, we uh fuck like rabbits.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

And you weren't using protection?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

No, on and off, but not consistent. I remember in '93, '94, I got really sick, almost like a really terrible flu. I mean, just devastated for like a week. I was so bad. I couldn't sleep, nothing. And we were kind of we were kind of together together at that point. I mean, like almost living together. And I was so bad I couldn't sleep and couldn't do anything. She gave me a Delaudd.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Whoo!

SPEAKER_02 28:05

That is a miracle drug.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Okay, so now what? Can we just take a sidebar into how did she have Delaudded?

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Okay. You just you didn't ask these questions.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

No, I was feeling so bad. I never asked for it. I said, I I was feeling so shitty.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

That she said, I'll give you something. She goes, take this.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

No, and I was like, You sure? She goes, Yeah, take it, you'll be fine. And I was. Sure. It knocked me the fuck out. I'm sure it didn't. I was still kind of sick when I woke up, but I was not in, I didn't have any aches. I didn't have anything.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Like your lack of focus was uh problematic for you.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Not even asking where the drugs are coming from.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

I don't left the gift drug in the mouth.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

I get it. I get it. Yeah. That's why would you?

SPEAKER_02 28:48

No. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Okay, so but you're very, very sick.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Very sick. And then we thought it was just the flu. And then and then I had a car, but Lance was my boss and lived in like he we lived down here, and he lived. Well, we I lived with her here, and he lived upstairs.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Apartment.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

He was in, he was driving me somewhere, and he said something about me and Jay. And he said something about, you know, she's positive. I said, Yeah. And you take a test protecting yourself, right? I'm like, I didn't say anything. I think I just hesitated. He goes, Oh, we're going to get tested right now. He did. He took me right to like what the to do the test. Yeah. And then 94, November, this is like four, five, six months later. In November and 94, I was t I tested positive for it.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

And um been surviving ever since. There's a gene that a doctor or they could do a test for. If you have a certain gene marker, uh the disease does not progress beyond a certain point for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

So from 94 through 09, I was not on meds. And then 09, the uh viral load spiked. But I don't know what caused it. I don't know if it was not that I wasn't feeling any different. Maybe I was, but I don't think I was feeling different. But did a normal every six-month test, and you just said, Oh, your viral load's high. So, what do you want? What would you do? Oh, you should go on this. And the meds by then were way less toxic than they are back in the beginning. It's like sure. Stuff in the beginning I would never take, even though Jay did. And it's been undetectable since.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

But so how so did she have it from her husband?

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah. I come I found out later that they were Ivy drug users, too. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

So that was my next question. Was this just because they were just having promiscuous sets of people? Ivy drug.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, Arthur had his issues, she had her issues, and and and a lot of that was kicked, but it was too late to go beyond that. It was like they got rid of all that, but they had this wonderful gift.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yes, this wonderful gift. Jesus. Um, so okay, at the time, and again, to your point, it's like, you know, we're talking about this with all of this is such in the rear view mirror for most of us at this point, and now we know so much more.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

And at the time, we just kind of We knew a lot actually back in the in the mid 90s, but but I was still go ahead, you could say it.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

You were dumb.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Just stupid enough not to pay attention. Yeah, but they just can't happen to me.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

And uh when I got the diagnosis, you know, it wasn't a show. I mean, why would it be at this point?

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Well, that was that was sort of my next question, then is what was the impact to you? Like, did you tell your family right away?

SPEAKER_02 31:24

No, no, I never I didn't tell them for quite a while.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Okay. And why? Why do you think that if you were not so affected by it, if you were kind of in this place of like because I wasn't I I I didn't I didn't foresee uh well, maybe also being dumb, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

I don't think I don't think that was it. If the diagnosis was just now and it happened recently, I'm not going anywhere for a while. And there's probably a a bit of uh shame, still still a lot of stigma. I don't think there's as much stigma now, but I think there's a little bit of stigma with lots of different things, but I think there's still there was a lot of stigma back then, a little bit of stigma, maybe a little bit, a little bit now. That was probably the reason. And I didn't tell him what did I tell him? I told him I can't remember the year I told my father.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

But it was a while. Oh, yeah. It was not like early. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

It had to be 10-15 years later.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Jeez, okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Never told my mother, never told my brother. You never told me. Well, I don't even listen to podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Look at us breaking news.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Right. Never told my mother.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

She didn't need to know.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Even when on her deathbed, I'm not gonna tell her.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Um, and the and the reason was is that if I'm being monitored by a doc and its viral load is undetectable or low, right? And my T cell count is high, right? The things you worry about now are cholesterol, heart problems, stress, blood pressure, everything else you're supposed to worry about anyway. So if that thing's manageable and it's a manageable disease, really manageable now, especially when you see all the prep commercials now, then I'm like, I'm not gonna worry about it. Gotcha. And then I did finally tell my father. I think I told my aunt, my father's sister, and I might have told her first. And she says, You should tell your dad. I'm like, I will. And then one day I was just visiting and I said, I have to tell you something. And uh I was a shitty kid. I stole money out of his wallet. But that's how that was a pre that was the the preface to me telling him, I go, I owe you money, and I hand him $300 and said, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Oh god, no, you didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

And he goes, he held the money, he goes, He like he lost his shit for like two minutes. And my stepmother was like knitting.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

I figured.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Kept going. She didn't even didn't even phase her.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Really?

SPEAKER_02 33:34

No, didn't phase her, didn't phase her even a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

He was on his kid.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Well, sure, sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

But he he he he got really upset and he walked out. He didn't walk out, he walked like in the kitchen, came back, sat down, and said, and then and then the clinical questions start, what's your viral lowest? He's a dentist, he's a dentist, he's gonna treat patients as universal precautions. And then all the all the all the clinical questions start coming out.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

And then we went through those.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah. Well, because he's catching up now on 15 years of missed opportunity. So of course he's got questions.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

And then and then he started, you know, you should have told me sooner I'm like, I know.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

And so back to Jay for a minute. You did you you didn't get married until after you knew about the HIV, right? Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah, we got married in '95.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

And then which I already knew at that point. So it was like it was not even a year later, but it was like five, seven months.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

No, more. Nine months.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Okay. And then what was the impetus? Because you guys ended up getting divorced.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Oh, we were already living together and we were moved a couple times and we were in a um, I think a townhouse and stuff, and I proposed to her. We had her issues like everybody else, but I proposed to her. And um, I don't know, I loved her, so figured we got married. And I wasn't sure if she wanted to get married again. She was already married once. Right. And she did. She wanted to get married. But your old demons don't go away unless you take care of them, at least handle them. So yeah, we got we we were together from '95, July of '95, we had a beach wedding.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Nice. I didn't know that about you. Look at that. I'm learning new things.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

In Stanford, everybody knows about Stanford, Connecticut. There's the the the cove area, which is uh it's right on the water on the sound. And the cove is cove park. So there's like a walking, skating, biking path. It's almost almost a mile. I think it's a mile. And if you walk into the park and then on the road, no cars go, but if you walk all the way to the to the back, which is right on the water, you know, you climb up a little tiny hill, you're on you're pretty much sitting on a hill looking at the water. And we had a Jewish wedding out there. Then we catered at the um at the townhouse area. Yeah, we put up a tent and tables.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

And so, so again, like how were you married?

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Uh from July of '95 through officially divorced in February '99.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

We were separated in about September of 98. I'm not gonna put blame on Jay, but uh any blame on anybody, it's just things happen. Um, because of Arthur, her past husband, and whatnot, she she had a tendency to hit the bottle to deal with certain things.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

She's and I never said a word, never complained. At one point, she just stopped drinking. I don't know why she just stopped drinking. And then in '97, we bought the house, and she found the house.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Um, and she said, Oh, I bought I I found this house. You gotta see the kitchen. And Karen, you've been in the kitchen, it's it's a tiny little thing, but it's cute.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

It is, and it is a unique layout, right? It's a unique layout.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

The house is built in 51, so I mean, there's only so much you can do without just ripping the sh the fucking house apart, and I don't want to do that. Um, but she goes, I was the cook in the of the two of us. She rarely cooked, I usually cooked it. And she goes, I think you like the kitchen. And back then it looked a little different, but basically this same structure. I said, Okay. So she she was running around, I'm probably working. She wasn't working that day. She goes, I want you to see this house. So I saw the house and said, Okay. And we bought the house. Now, you just don't buy a house on a whim, you got to plan for it. You just plan a little bit, and you know what the struc cost is gonna be, you know what your monthly is gonna be and your taxes and all kind of crap. And so we buy the house, and back then in '97, the house was $240,000. Now they're ridiculously expensive, even a little house like mine. Within the first six months to a year, her thought what she started, well, maybe over a year. It was over a year or two. She started drinking again, and like really drinking. And the the catalyst for the divorce or the separation was the was so I worked for a consulting company out of dairy in Connecticut. And and and um a year into the company, after the year after the company was founded, uh, I think the name is Ira. Uh he lived in Solgatok Shores Westport. And if anybody knows anything about Sogatok Shores Westport, it's pretty much like Israel by the sea. I mean, it's doesn't look like it, but it's a lot of a big Jewish population, and the houses are gorgeous. He was having a one-year anniversary party, he was inviting, he was catering, and he was inviting all the administrative staff, everybody who works for him, is salespeople and recruiters and everything. And they asked me to go. And I said to Janet, who was my recruiter and a friend of mine, I said, Does anyone have the contractor going? She goes, No. I'm like, that's a big deal. She goes, Yes. This is a big deal. I'm like, I'm the only contractor. Yes. I'm like, okay. Said, bring the wife. I said, okay. So I said, hey, Jay, we were invited to this thing and Saga Tuck. She's like, ooh. I was like, buy a dress. It's a I don't want to say formal, but it's you know, it's a big deal. You know, you know the area. She goes, Yeah. I said, this is a this is a catered event. So okay. We we go there and the house is like it's like being you wouldn't know you were in Connecticut. It just felt like the shore.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Like just gorgeous. And you pull up to the house and it has like a little circular driveway, and you pull up and you walk up, and the house is five, six thousand square feet, maybe. And then this is a fully catered affair, including a full bartender and bar. So we walk out the back. I don't say anything to Jay, she's an adult. You make your own decisions, regardless if you're married to me or anybody. I say, uh uh, we'll get your drinks and blah blah blah. It's an open bar. So we mingle and talk, and I know everybody who works with a company pretty much, and she's introducing herself. It was a very nice affair. So we left, we go home. Next day, I get a call from Jenna. She goes, and for I'm probably paraphrasing a lot of it, but she goes, What do you think of the party? I'm like, Oh, that house is gorgeous, the food was great. She goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, and I could hear it. I'm like, what's wrong? She goes, Well, I got some feedback. And I knew what it was about. I could feel it. Because I knew Jay drank a lot, even at the party, even though it was open bar. But I wasn't sure where this was going. I'm like, okay. She goes, well, let me just reiterate what was said. I said, okay. She goes, um, Ira's wife said, um, I know an alcoholic when I see one. I said, oh. And I don't want to talk too bad about Jay, but this is just this situation. This is what transpired. And um, I said, okay. She goes, Mike, who's a sales guy. His wife and him said, if you need anything, let him know.

unknown 40:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

And Ira Ira, who's the owner of the company, said, if you need anything, you let him know.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Okay. I'm at work in my own cube. And so there's no privacy, really.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

But they can't hear her side of the conversation. Sure. I pick up the phone again. This is right around lunch. For my father. He goes, What's going on? I said, I'm getting divorced. He goes, You don't have to buy your way out of the divorce. And then he hung up the phone. Yep. That was the conversation. I think I don't remember if I came home that day or some other day. She's already drinking like a fifth of vodka a day, every other day.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

So I was like, Are you gonna listen? I've never said anything before, but are you gonna slow this down? Because I don't understand what's going on. And she I said, she goes, no. I said, okay. Let it go for a while. Days later, we had a normal conversation. I said, listen, I don't think I'm what you want. I think she might have been cheating, but I didn't really care whether she was cheating or not. Because people do whatever they want.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

It's not a good sign, by the way. If you know you well, if you suspect and you don't care about it, no, no, no, no. It's like not a good sign.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

It took a while before because I met him a couple times. He was a nice guy, but I figured there was something going on. But I never I never confronted her about him. All I said was, I don't think I'm what you want. You're not gonna stop, you're not gonna do what I would I want you to stop drinking because I don't think it's good. I said, What is going on? She goes, Well, we bought this house and now we're at financial pressure. I go, you I'm like, you knew you knew we're buying this house. I was like, it didn't really make any sense. I'm like, okay. And I said, I don't think I'm I ultimately said, I don't think I'm what you want, and I don't want this. So we have to figure this out, whether we're together or not. And it took a while. I had to ask her for the divorce. And I had to ask her to leave. And I did ever say anything about if she's stepping out or not. I did not care. Ultimately, I really don't care because if you need to do that, that's on you.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

I know I didn't, and I probably could have. And I was like, I'm not gonna step out. I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

So um we separated for six months. I and we at the time, so people some people know if they know me, I had two rot, we had two Rottweilers, Max and Shayna, and they were like 10 months apart, different breeders. Um, they were like brother and sister, it was like two elephants running around the house. It's freaking ridiculous. I had to keep the house because she couldn't have, she she had no place, she couldn't afford the house by herself, and she couldn't keep the dogs if she went somewhere. So I I ended up keeping the dogs. And um so I said, do don't I said take whatever you want out of the house. She goes, You want to be there when I move out? I'm like, no, I trust you. Take whatever you want, leave the bed, come home from work. Bez gone. Luckily, well, I don't have it now. I don't I don't even know if I had it when you when we met. Uh in that in the in the office in the house, it was like a love seat pullout. So I pull it out, I make it, I lay down on it, and 200 plus pound Rottweilers gone to bed with me.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

And I'm not a small guy, people have met me. And woke up the next morning achy as shit because you know, dog was like pushing on you and stuff, and they knew something was wrong. And uh bought a bed. And uh, we got a mediation attorney because I went to an attorney, and I think she might have gone to an attorney, and my attorney said, You you you don't have any kids or anything, you should just get a mediation attorney, and she recommended. This guy in Westport.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Did you also at any point by then consider therapy? And the only reason I'm asking is because, in a way.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

And I, if I remember correctly, I think she said no.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

I'm not even talking about couples therapy. I just mean like for you.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Oh, I was already, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Okay. Because uh the way that I'm hearing it, and maybe this is just in the delivery and not really necessarily indicative of how you felt or feel. But it's one thing to be like, yeah, I mean, she's an adult and she can make her own decisions. Sure. And that's a healthy outlook. She can. But when you're married and you have so now you're like this unit, it is actually okay to ask for like the things that you want or you need in your relationship. And so obviously it's very telling when you say things like, I didn't really care. Like whatever she decided you didn't care. Okay, got it. Then you shouldn't have been married either. No.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

I realized that. Yeah, I don't know. I realized a lot of things. But like that we should not have been married and we fought the day of the marriage. I don't even remember what it was about. That was the thing. You never remember what those things were about. You just realized you had an argument and you questioned. Like I remember questioning, should I really be married? Or getting married? Yeah. Not be married, getting married. Well, maybe it was just, you know, stress and whatever else. So you still get still do it.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

So then after the divorce, how did living with HIV impact your outlook on dating and partnerships?

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Did you actually didn't slow me down, but what usually slowed me down, or maybe pause, was if you got close enough to someone you had to tell them it was very painful lots of times because you don't know what the reaction is gonna be. And and it sometimes people have even up through the 2000s, people still had these misconceptions about you know transmission and stuff, and I was like, I'm not sleeping with you, we're not doing anything putting someone at risk. And then I said it would never put someone at risk. But even just kissing someone and like losing their shit. I'm like, all right, but let's get we'll get to that point of the reactions, which kind of changed my outlook on things. But nothing. I still hung out and still went out and still dated and did whatever and disclosed, and whatever the reaction was was a reaction. I remember I dated I had a friend Lisa who I used to work with her years ago. She had a friend she sent me up with, and we went on a few dates. And eventually I had to tell her because we were getting closer, and she was very calm about it. Somebody would lose her shit. She was very calm, and her reaction was I can't deal with this right now. Like, but very but very even keel the way I'm just paraphrasing, but sure. She goes, Yeah, this is not for me.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

That was fair.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Yeah, now it was in the somewhere in the early 2000s, I think. So still went on dates here and there. And then in 05, I met this woman, Karen. Um she went to NYU in a master's program. And we met through an app or something. There's still sites for like there's always a dating site for something, right? And there's, I don't remember what it's called, positive singles or something. So we met and we went out a few times and we hit it off pretty well. Um and we're both positive, so it made it easier.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Um, and we hung out and various, you know, for a couple a year or two. Went to Vegas together once, and she showed me her side of Vegas, which was very different than my side of Vegas. It was very interesting. Who knew that Vegas had big antiquing areas where I was huge and it was fun.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

I'll bet my friend Vic, who is definitely going to listen to this, will be like, Oh, I know. I knew about it.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

And ask Vic about if there's three bears. I think it's called Three Bears, the Diner is still there because that's way off strip.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

And there was she'll probably text me while she listens, and she'll be like, Yep, it's still there, or nope, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

So um, I'll let you know. We hung out for a while, but but Karen was on a path for her PhD, and uh she went to Columbus, she went to um Ohio University. Um, she was going there for her PhD, and I was on a road trip coming back, and I stopped for a weekend. We hung out for a while, but eventually we just I don't know, just drifted apart because she was on a path, and someone said, Why don't you ever ask her to stay? I'm like, I'm never gonna ask someone to stay. As much as you say I could ask for something, I'm like, they have a path and you can hear it. Yeah, like it's very clear, like something changed in her life, and this is what she wanted to do. So she had to get a master's degree she wanted to get and a PhD. I'm like, you go do your thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah, but what's interesting about that is even though because like there are there are other options besides just asking a person to stay, and that you also drifted apart.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

I don't I don't know what to do. Which is fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

I'm just saying, it's like you also could have just been like, okay, where are you going? Is it possible for me to go there too? Like that didn't occur to you. That didn't occur to you. Okay. So I know that for a long time you have basically kept the information about being positive sort of a little bit under lock and key.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Like well, let me let me finish the the dating part because I think the next part is kind of gives a better picture, a little bit of a picture of what's been going on since so in 09. I dated someone, she lived in the city, we got along, great. I mean, like two peas in a pod, great. Um, I would go down the city, she some comes some. I think she lived, she worked in Norwalk, so I mean she's just a trainer. We hang out up here sometimes. And then one night was she also positive?

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Was this another no?

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Okay, okay, no, and so I picked her up, I think, after work in Norwalk, and we're driving around. I said, I want to tell you something. And I told her we didn't we didn't sleep together, we really didn't do anything, and definitely nothing to put her at risk. But I told her exactly what it is, and and she kind of freaked out. We talked about it for a while, but I had a feeling this was it, and she asked me some questions about it. One thing she said is she turned to me and said, I don't want to have to take care of you. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? And she was worried that if I got to a point where whatever happened, I'd have to take someone to take care of me. I'm like, what are you talking about? We talked a little bit more, but she looks like she was freaked out. And I was like, at that point, I was like, I just drop her off at the train station so I can go home.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

And after a while, she's like, uh, yeah, let's go. And I said, okay, and put in it. We went to the car, and sort of tracing us around the corner, we're in Norwalk. And I said, uh, well, you take care of yourself. She goes, I'll talk to you. I said, No, you won't. No, this is done.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

And she didn't say anything because she, you know, it's it's you don't leave it open-ended. If if you you don't want to continue, you don't continue. So I just made it easier for both. I could feel it. I'm like, so from 09 on, I have not dated anybody because of the reaction. The reaction, I'm not I'm not giving it the dramatic weight it is based on my description.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah. But but it impacts you very deeply.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Yeah, and at that point I realized I just don't want to deal with this shit. I don't want to, and now 09 is quite a few years ago. Um, and at that it was actually that not much after that that I started taking meds because of the viral load picked up. Um, but that one doesn't have to do with the other, it's just timing, right? Um, and I realized I don't want to deal with this shit, I don't want to deal with the reactions I got from people, and it's just shocking the range of responses you get from people, yeah. And it's a disease like anything else. Unfortunately, you get it with one of the most pleasurable things in the world.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Yeah, right. But I am still here, so you are, and yes, that does lead to the question that I was gonna ask is like you've you've definitely kept that pretty close to the vest. You've obviously not shared it with a lot of, you know, even co-former coworkers or you know Jim's the uh Amy and Vincent, parent of my goddaughters, they obviously know.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

Yeah, but I told Amy before she even had kids, before she even met Vincent. And then she told me about her sister. So what's funny is that when I told I told her we were eating dinner somewhere, and I said, Hey, I'm also positive. And she goes, shut the fuck up. And I was like, I'm not kidding. And she goes, Oh, you really you're serious?

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

Uh and then we and we told Vincent once they got together and stuff, and then uh Jim, who you met, um, I told him over scars years ago.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

I told him before I told my father I think, but I really haven't told very many people. I mean, I told Becker, and that was just because we were having like sitting outside and shooting his shit during a vacation.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

I told uh Kevin, um, who I haven't talked to in a while, his reaction was very funny. But most people are like, eh, yeah, you're fine. I think someone told me that. I said, if you tell someone something and there's a picture in their head from years ago from the 80s and 90s where someone's sickly, I am obviously not sickly. You were not, no, no, but nowadays, this is a manageable disease. If anything, it's the last thing I worry about. It's that makes sense as of as has happened last day and a half. You have other issues which kind of color thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

So is it just time and distance that's made you sort of loosen your stance on because here's the thing it's one thing for you to be like, you know, you keep it close to the vest, and then I asked you like if you wanted to chat for the podcast, and you're like, Yeah, I'm an open book, I'll talk about anything. And I was like, you'll talk about HIV because if you just have not, and you're like, Yup. But it's but is it just time and distance that it's time and distance, and it's also I if you notice very rarely talk about myself. Um that is true.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

I will only, and as I as I said before we even uh started the record uh recordings, don't be that old. Um is that I like to be prompted. This is one of the things I noticed when I was dating, is that if you go on a date and the person talks about themselves and never asks you a question. And they're on a date with you and they never ask a question, I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? Because the only way you learn about anybody is some questions. Yeah, someone will talk about it, but but you have to start the conversation somewhere. Yeah, because sometimes if you just start talking, it'll give someone a window into your world, but at the same time, there's no context. I'm like, what are we doing here? I can give you a funny example. I'm on a plane, I think I'm coming back from Vegas with Ken. You know Ken. And it's from a conference or something. And I'm sitting next to a woman, uh middle-aged woman about my age, and then a younger guy. And we started talking about she asked me why it was why I'm going, why I'm going to Vegas, where they were going on our way out. And she goes, Why are you going to Vegas or why are you in Vegas? So we come here for a tech conference, and it's this uh EWS thing, whatever it was. And she goes, You come here to Vegas often? I go, Yeah, I go every year. She goes, What kind of stuff? I go in October, it's usually NASCAR. She goes, Really? I go, Yeah, I'm the only Jew you know that probably likes NASCAR. Right? And then we started joking and back and forth, and then the conversation lulled as the airplane was taking off, and Ken leaned over and said, You can talk to anybody. I said, Yeah, but I'm prompt. But I said, and I'm thinking, I'm prompted. Somebody just says some nice comment or some quip or something, and it just there goes, just starts. You need a starting point. And yes, I can just say hello, and that could be a starting point. But if like in a conversation like this, sometimes you wanted a prompt just to give you the start, give me the starting point, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

And yeah, but I've noticed that during the but the thing with being positive for HIV that I think is different because and because I have I've been on the receiving end of your information. I've known this for a long time, for almost the what did you probably told me a year and a half after? It was like a year and a half after I met you. And it was in Colorado. You actually had flown out, like our company got acquired. We were the HQ was in Colorado. I was a terrible flyer. It was the second time ever I was gonna be on a plane as an adult. And the first time Ang had flown with me out there, and so you were like, I gotta go out there anyway. Like, I'll just fly out of New York, I'll fly with you. And so you flew out with me. And we were there for work stuff for like a week, and that was when you decided to tell me. And the so the difference that I see in how you're describing that, though, is that is something that is deeply personal, and it is something that you held on to. It's not the same as just starting a conversation and asking questions about a person, right? So, like we knew each other for a year and a half, and there was something that made you feel comfortable enough with me.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

That's usually about being comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Yeah, and that and I think that's what I was getting at. So, so how do you go from that to now and loosening up that stance?

SPEAKER_02 56:46

So if you if someone and you've been down this road, so have I. When someone tells you they have cancer, what's your first visual visual vision visceral reaction? What is your first visual reaction when someone tells you they have cancer?

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Regardless of what kind of cancer is it's I mean, my first visceral reaction is usually like dismay, like holy shit. But I almost immediately go to the clinical too, because I also do have an awareness of not all cancers are created equally, and a lot of it's treatable, and you can just live with it like you know, like you do with diabetes or whatever. So I I don't know if that's the same thing that you expect most people to say.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Uh there's uh initially I wouldn't say anything or tell some of them, is that I don't want to, I don't want to worry about the stigma. I didn't want sympathy, I didn't want to be like, whatever. I didn't want people to look at me and say, picture something that wasn't me. I mean, yeah, changed the color bunch of things. But that those are the reasons that what what you see is what you get, and and it doesn't matter. In a lot of cases, I think it doesn't matter what disease someone was dealing with, or maybe whatever the shit they're dealing with, is it's basically on a on a basic level the same person. And um, as Becky would have told you when we first met in a year a year or two after, I was the most arrogant piece of shit she ever met.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Really?

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Oh, she said I was an asshole. I was she goes, I was really nice and then an asshole at the same time, and I couldn't see it until probably years later, and then the diagnosis because it humbles the shit out of you. Sure. Oh, yeah. And then we had a conversation years later, and we were out, I don't remember. She goes, You're a lot different now. And like, I know. Yeah, she goes, I know. Yeah, so now it's I'm 57 and I don't give a fuck what people think.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

She said that when my birthday dinner is nice, yeah. Somebody says something about I ordered wine, and the waiter says something about we won't make fun of you. I go, about the wine? He goes, Yeah. He goes, I drink bourbon home, I don't give a fuck what people think. Don't say fair.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

I was like, I don't give a fuck what people think. This is who I am. I've lived this long. People live a life, and people can have their own thoughts. And on top of that, my disease doesn't affect anybody. And if it and the only person it might affect is someone I might be with.

unknown 59:03

True.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

It says I'm not with anybody right now, it's not gonna affect anybody.

SPEAKER_01 59:06

That's right. Right. That's right. Also, I think too, the the older I get, the more I very fully understand the saying what other people think about you isn't your business. I I They can think whatever they want because that it's a reflection of them. What somebody else thinks about you, your situation, how you live your life, whatever, is a reflection of them and has nothing to do with you. I think when it counts as if it's somebody that you deeply care about, family members, you know, sometimes they are kind of a mirror to hold up to yourself at times. That's a little bit different. But random people, it's like that's that's your business, what you think about what I'm doing. That is not my business. So um another thing that I, you know, that we connected over, that we bonded over. Um besides bacon. Besides bacon, was the fact that when I had started at Expire, I had just lost my mom six months before. And you had lost your mom like a year prior. I want to say your mom died like a year before my mom did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

And and then, you know February 14th, 2011, which is Valentine's Day. Yeah. Which I don't really equate Valentine's Day, it's been quite a few years.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

No, but it's weird because February is a bit of a time frame for you too, because then you lost your your dad.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:19

So my mother was 2011, February 14th. My dad was 2016, 28th, uh the 18th of February.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

February.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

And then my stepmom was six weeks later.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

Um, we'd think it was a broken heart, but but you but you've you've got breast cancer, yes. And she fought it for two years, and then she turned to me and said, I'm done. And I was like, You really you sure? She goes, Yeah, I'm done. I don't want to fight anymore. But then uh she went into hospice right afterwards, and I visited her in hospice on and off. It wasn't she wasn't there long. I remember I had to go home and uh change clothes or something, and I got a call from the hospice place, and she goes, Your mother's deteriorating, you need to come back. I said, Okay, on the way back, call my father. And because it was in town, yeah, very close, so my father met me over there and she expired that that night with my father uh next to me. And my mother, we were more c much closer as when we were when I was an adult. Sure, you know, like like most things now. We we got closer, but I think my love of musicals and whatnot is for my mother. Well, and they both like going to shows and stuff, so I always got it from them. But what's interesting is I can't remember everything she has said, like certain things you just kind of remember. I remember more from my father because we were close.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

But what did that so kind of similar questions to even finding out about your HIV and like your diagnosis? When you lose, when I I mean, I have some experience, not the full experience that you've had because now you're an orphan. I'm not an I'm not technically an orphan, I'm sort of a self-imposed orphan because I don't talk to my dad. But but it it does shift. I I found for myself, you it starts to shift how you so the same year my mother passed, but my mother passed in February, Steve Jobs passed in November from pancreatic cancer. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

So everybody gets everybody can get cancer, anybody can get cancer. My mother got cancer, she fought it, she passed. And then you see somebody, not a mythic figure, I want to say Steve Jobs mythic figure, but you know, a company that a lot of people like and blah blah blah, and he's held up in high esteem. But to see him all of a sudden deteriorate and go, and then you realize it could happen to anybody. Anybody can get anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

That's true, right? Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

What usually happens, and you probably did this with your mom, and you you and Ange did this with your mother, but after you know, my mother was very well organized and she set up things way ahead of time, organized finances way ahead ahead of time, including like putting me on some of the accounts as a power of attorney just in case pay bills. And uh so you yeah, you can't really prepare yourself for your parent dying, but but you knew it was coming because you you knew you'd only fight for so long, especially stage four breast cancer.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

Oh, you spread at that point. So she fought for a while and got tired of it. But once you know, once when once she passed, then you kick in as the the executor of the estate and you gotta take care of the house. You have to do all these things and run around like a lunatic. You do all these things, and it's not till later when you settle down you realize your mother's gone.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

Yeah. And that yeah, that's okay. We cry on this podcast, so it's all right. You can get sand in your eyes. We're at the beach.

unknown 1:03:35

Lots of sand.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Exactly. Um it's not very beachy right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:40

So it took a while before it settles in. So it took a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

It does. It does. Like it to your point, I didn't probably start to grieve for real until years later. It was one of those things where you just keep going and going and going. And life continues. Life continues and um and you've got responsibilities and your bills still have to get paid, and so you just keep going and going and going until at some point I realized I it didn't even I was depressed for an entire summer before it even hit me. Oh shit. I probably have not grieved my mother. Like, but it was I had just gotten to this place of um, I struggled. Like I would get up and do my job, and then I would be on the couch. And that's how I lived my life for like two straight months. I didn't want to do anything additional, anything extra. I did the bare minimum. I dialed in my life, and that was it. And so I totally get what you're saying. It's like it doesn't I kept working. Well, I keep working anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

I mean, you gotta pay bills, but but even though um it was 20 2011, I was already a year into Spire. Yeah. And the guys, the owners, the three of them said, you know, do whatever you gotta do, take time. And I didn't really. I kept I kept working because I knew I in addition to taking care of the estate and the house and everything else, I I just needed to focus on keep moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:05

And I realized I just need to move forward as best I can. And I honestly don't remember the when I finally grieved. Um, but not to, I mean, my mother and I were I was just like I said before, I'm closer to my father, so we could talk about that one. That was that was a tough one, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

I'm thinking about it more in terms of the sum total and not about us like losing a specific parent over the other one, but just thinking about how what the impact is to your life and how you view like your worldview.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

So my mother in 2011. Yep, my father in 2016, and then my stepmother not that much after. My stepmother's known me since pretty much I was born. Um, just so people know, my stepmother was my father's dental assistant. She was married and had her own. I have a stepbrother and stepsister, and they didn't get together for quite a few years after they my father divorced. So she's known. It's like nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

Uh just the beginning of the practice my father had. So we were close. I was very close to my stepmother. And obviously very close to my father. And my father, I I don't he retired in 2011, 2011, 2012. He sold his practice. But you know, he was always active doing something. And Betty had to throw him push push him and drag him to like you know doctor's appointments just to for checkups. But it was just weird is mother passed from breast cancer or metastatic breast cancer. And I get a call saying, Oh, maybe my father called me, I don't remember. So I'm in the hospital. And Betty goes, He had a stroke. I'm like, okay. So I went to the hospital and just to set the scene. He he's sitting there, we're watching, I think it's during February. No, it's January. So we were watching football. We're watching the Giants. And we're sitting there, and Betty's knitting, dad's in the chair, and I'm sitting over here, and we're just watching. And he goes, I said, You had a stroke? He goes, Yeah, yeah. Did you do anything about it? He goes, Not yet. I said, Okay. Oh, yeah, I also have pancreatic cancer. And I'm watching, I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Betty's like, Yup.

unknown 1:07:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

Still knitting.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

And then said that. I'm like, I'm gonna put a pin in that one because I don't know what the fuck we're talking about. He goes, Yeah, I we actually think that's what led to the stroke, which means fall down. Yep, yep, you know, lost control, can't lost whatever motion in the leg. I'm like, well, how far along? He goes, Well, it's PC. He goes, I'm like, oh fuck. So I went to and from the hospital a bunch of times. And when you have PC, it's if they catch it, it's like way beyond. It's like way into stage four. They catch it outside of pancreas. So eventually I, you know, we would talk every once in a while. No, it's a week or two, not even. And I said, What do you want to do? You want to fight? He goes, No. Like you sure? He goes, Yeah. Why? I've had a good life. I raised two good boys.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

Well, he really didn't know you that well, did he?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

My father?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

No. Two good boys.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Well, two boys. Um. Um. And he says, I'm not gonna fight. I said, okay. And so for some people about faith, this is an interesting thing about faith, is that we were raised Jewish. We were raised more secular. We were raised conservative. If anybody knows about Judaism, there's Orthodox, conservative, and reform. Orthodox, you follow everything. Conservative, you follow most things. I'm just breaking it down. And reform is like a very like Jewish light. You know, that we were we were raised conservative in an Orthodox synagogue, so you got all the traditions of the Orthodoxy, but you drove to synagogue. All that kind of stuff, cook and whatever. So we would go to synagogue during the higher holidays, blah blah blah, whatever that was. You know, Jim Kipper and Russia Shunning. I would, since my parents are divorced, I had to one day sit with one and sit with the other one.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

Yeah.

unknown 1:09:09

Fucking weird.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

So a couple days later, I'm visiting in the hospital before he goes home to have home hospice. And uh I said, You okay? He goes, let me tell you a dreamer, more like a vision. I was really afraid about going. In the in the vision, the dream, I was felt like I was wrapped with chains. I go, like like a prisoner. He goes, No, no, no. No, like the chains of faith, and they were keeping me secure. He goes, and and they and the chains were tethered to God. I said, okay. He goes, those are the chains of faith. Those are the chains of my faith and my connection to God, and I'm okay going. I lived a good life. I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:57

Yeah. I said, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:58

And then, you know, the hospital's at home, and the other nurse come in, and I got a call at 3 o'clock in the morning, like not even a week after a week or two after being home. Yeah, from Betty saying, Dad's gone. I'm like, I'm on my way. Being much closer to my father. It was tough. That was in February, and then beginning of April was Easter. And I saw Betty, she was a little depressed, but she was okay. But a week later I got a call. Because she wasn't responding to texts or phone or anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:30

Greg, who I I don't know if he's living up here now, my stepbrother, he went and found her. She was passed. And we're like, but we we there was no we all equated to dying of a broken heart, which didn't happen. I mean, it just stresses of everything. And we're like, she died of a broken heart. My father and her were together for years. And I was like, so a combination of those them gone is like I'm that was the realization I'm alone.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:00

Yes, I had my brother and stepsister and we were pretty close. But that was the realization I'm alone.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

And that I guess colored things a bit too, to a degree. Um started leaning more towards friends and and and whatnot, a little bit of family. But that that was tough. It was tough. I couldn't empty the house. I mean, I was also an hour over an hour away. And and Maddie and Trish were like, you know, 20 minutes away, um, on the other side of the river. So Maddie said, I'll do it. I mean, I know you're close to your dad. And I said, I'll do it. I said, Okay. And he helped clean out the house because there's no way Trish couldn't even go in the house.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:38

To see her mother, just you know, to empty the house. So Maddie took care of a lot of it, thank God.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

Have you maintained connection with them?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:46

I did for a while into this pandemic, and then the pandemic screwed me up. So, yes, I did. I was very close with Trish and Maddie and um hanging out all the time. And I would go up uh and see their kids. You know, Trish had two kids before she met Maddie, and then they had two kids together, and kids are all adults. But yeah, I I was pretty close with them all the way through once the pandemic hit, and we all did this stupid lockdown shit. That's and then within a year or two of that, I just and this has nothing to do with them per se. This is me. I started cutting off the world to a degree. And in 21, my friend Hans, who I've known since 04, and very close to him and his family. I mean, very close, yeah, best friend close to him and his family. And he passed away from uh calciophylaxis, which is uh hardening pretty much of the blood vessels or plaque in the blood vessels because it's usually caused by because of uh uh dialysis. This is a side effect of dialysis with some people. What's interesting is that he was type two diabetic, and uh his kidneys failed after February of 2020. He he's like one of the like probably one of the first cases to get COVID. Him and the family got a flu, yeah, and it destroyed his kidneys, acute failure. Yeah, had to go to dialysis, and then he passed away. And we were very close. Like I was hanging out with him all the time. Him and I saw the kids grow up, and so between uh uh pandemic which caused isolation, someone was self-induced. I like being alone sometimes. You do, um, and we're gonna get to that, and him him passing and feeling alone before it was just a fuck everyone, I don't want to deal with this shit. And since 21 or August of 21, I don't think I've been exactly the same. Yeah, I think it's more like a floating through life to a degree, and people know it. I know it now because I've I've figured it out, but people have noticed it and um people have said things in different ways, but not the way I just said it. Yeah, just this more focused on something. Yeah, you should do like not should, but no one actually tells me what to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

But no, nobody tells you what to do. No one ever tells me what to do, except Mackenzie.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

Except your daughter, who I'm scared of.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:05

Yes. So that leads to now.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

I mean, it leads to kind of like right now, to a degree right now, to a degree.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

And that that is kind of like before we wrap up, one of the things that I wanted to make sure that we touched on was that concept of being alone versus being lonely and you know, feeling like because you are good with being alone. In fact, even when you're around a lot of people, you do that thing where we jokingly call it, I hit a wall, like I and I need, I need to go retreat. Right. But you're in a situation where between living with HIV, not having a partner by choice, because you were like, I'm I'm done even trying because this is just too much, and not being what, in my opinion, from the outside looking in, not super close to family, whether that is again pandemic hit and you just kind of stopped engaging, or I know you you've actually mentioned like you've had waves of relationships with like your brother, and but you know, I wouldn't have to be a good thing related to Peter, which I'm really talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

I talked to him once. Exactly. We were like two peas in a pot, even though he's in Jersey.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:13

And it's probably more on my I don't know what the reason is, could be lots of reasons for these kind of things, but sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:19

But talk a little bit about what it has meant to you to kind of create your own family with your friends.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:27

So I uh I don't know if I think I mentioned it. I have two goddaughters who are now 12 and 10. Um, and their parents are very close friends of mine, and I worked with them at one point years ago. Um and I was the around since those kids were born, and I don't have any children of my own, not that not that I know of. So when gotta help the world, thank god to to to be around and see them grow up, and not that I influence people's anybody growing up, but just see them grow up and interact with them as they get older and older and older, is it's a nice feeling. Um but I I've always so the ADD thing is you need a lot of stimulus, sometimes too much, you go will really detrimental in the case like hitting the wall. When I was younger, I was more extrovert. Up to a certain age, I was an extrovert, and then probably within the last say pandemic or five years, I'd turn into more of an introvert. So I'm okay being alone. Do I think I'm lonely? If like I always go to they Becky and I haven't been together since we were 19, so we're always friends, we always went to Vegas together, so good travel partners. She's really she was really easy to travel with, and I think I was I maybe tried to make it easy for her to travel with me. Sure. But when you see, like I went on a Viking River cruise, but I went with my father, stepmother, and a friend of theirs. But when you see the advertisements for travel, you see couples or whatever it is, right? And I would like to go to I'm a beach kid, you know, people look at me going, You're so fair skinned. I'm like, I still love the beach. I like to do these trips, even if I go to Europe. But I've done travel alone, but at the same time, I think there's a dynamic. There's a very different dynamic when you travel with somebody, romantic partner and otherwise, romantic partner is a very different dynamic. That I kind of miss.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:21

I think I that part I miss because as I get older, uh, you know, what's the use of making money if you're not gonna spend at least a little bit of it? Sure. You know, great, I'm putting money away for my retirement, and then what am I gonna do when I'm retired?

unknown 1:17:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:33

Keep working until I'm 80, right? Because I have nothing else. That is the thought now. You know, when you're younger, you're like, nah, I can wait. And now I'm like, well, I'm on the other end of the bit, I'm on the other end of the of the career. So what am I gonna do? And then those questions of being alone. I'm okay being alone. I like being around people. For instance, when you had Thanksgiving, was before Nick and Sam had the kids, there were 25 people and dogs at the house. It was a fucking zoo. Yeah, it was fan fucking tastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:04

Except some people, like I, depending on the stimulus and the number of people, I hit a wall. Like it's just too much going on. You gotta go separate, and that's what I do. Up to a certain level, it's just there's just too many people, and you gotta go go do your own thing. Um, and that still happens. It happened um recently when I went to Amy's birthday. There was a lot of people around. And then after a while, I'm like, uh, I just hit a wall. And it's not like I'm interacting with every single person, right? But there's a lot going on. I'm like, uh, you know, and then I know I'm supposed to become I'm I'll be coming here, and blah blah blah. But the lonely part is it's not so much uh thinking I'm lonely right now. No, no, it's a matter of I want to do things like go to a beach vacation, but with people, with a certain person or something. Yeah, you know, you know, we're just sitting there reading books, who gives a shit? Yeah, you know, reading books and then go make food or something. Yep, it's it's a very different. And there's a place for friends and family, and there's a place for a romantic partner, or you're just possible romantic partner, whatever the fuck that is. That's the thought now. Yeah. Is I mean at 57, yeah, people are still dating until their 80s. I sure I want to do that. Do I still want to now with this podcast? Maybe people understand more, but maybe do I start venturing out? And things are the dynamic is different between two people when they're in their 50s compared to when they're 30s.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:27

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:28

So maybe things are different now. Maybe maybe someone's thought process is more receptive to it. Yeah, I don't know. But that those are thoughts about loneliness and lonely. I I don't I don't feel loneliness. I don't sit in a house, oh shit, I'm not doing anything's the way around. No, I'm always finding something to do. Yes. Whether it's something stupid like watching television or playing a video game or screwing around, because I tinker with me, as much as the job is programming, I still tinker outside at work. But there are there are times when I'm like, I could probably find something else to do. And that is when I'm always planning a trip to go somewhere, but nice to plan it with somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

Yeah. Yeah, that would yeah, I can see how that would be nice. In the meantime, you know, you just go on vacations with us and we make sure that there's enough space for you to when you hit the wall, you can't hit the wall, I can go do my thing. But I because I I think we're kind of a family full of people who hit walls, which is interesting, like in our own way.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:23

But I've seen it throughout the beach vacations we've taken up all the time. Sometimes you got to disappear. Exactly. It's like 30 of us, there's like just a few of us.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:35

So yeah, you break off in your little do your thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

And then you come back together for certain things. I like that dynamic, and that's the dynamic. Even when my father and Miss Betty were getting LBI houses, people come and go. My brother came down with the kids, or I would come down and then my aunt would come down from Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:52

It worked out fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

Yeah. But you don't think you're a lonely person. I don't think you're I don't think you are either.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

I don't I don't look at it that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:59

No. Alone, sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:01

But not lonely. Well, all right. Now we're at the time of at my kitchen table where I have to put you on the spot and ask you to give me three good things about your week, which is hilarious because you already know that this is a thing that we do. We do it at Thanksgiving, we do it when we do big family vacations, we go around the table, everybody does three good things about their day or their week or whatever. So you should actually be primed for this question.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:24

Well, I'm gonna say the fuckery, as much as a bad thing, is actually a good thing because it brings us closer.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:31

Um, being able to come down to Shinkati. And um, I think that's that's a good thing. And the last one I would say is I don't want to get weepy.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:46

Get weepy, go for it, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:48

You and Todd and Ange and Brett and the kids and Nick and everybody else is very accepting as a family, and that's a wonderful feeling. Yeah, it's one thing between you guys and Amy and Vincent and Jim and anybody else. And Hans's family, Hans's family, and even Peter, even though I haven't talked to him, but that's probably more on me than anybody else, is that everyone's been very regardless of everything else, there's no expectation and they're very accepting. You're all a bunch of funny motherfuckers.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:18

We like to think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:19

You know, especially Todd with his bangers.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:22

He's been on fire this week. He really has been. Well, thank you. You're welcome. Um I do want to before we wrap, like the fuckery, I think we just need to explain. No one is gonna know what that even means. So we I mean, explain it. You can explain it. I'm gonna let you do your version of it, but I'm just gonna set the scene and say, I took at my kitchen table on the road. I've done that now a couple of times, so we're not actually at my own personal kitchen table. We are in Chinkateing Island, Virginia, and it's just Todd and I here, and Steve joined us for the week. So, Steve, explain the fuckery.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:58

Well, let's just set the scene in October. I closed up the house, which means, you know, open up the bosses, close the main line of the water, blah, blah, blah, throw things out. So the house is gonna be well, we were supposed to be here two weeks ago, but this snowstorm screwed everything up.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:12

It really did.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:13

And then uh I was supposed to be here on Sunday, came down on Monday, and then when I got here, maybe Ashley called me, I think, on the way down here and said, Well, we're having some water issues, and a valve in the dishwasher cracked, which caused water on the floor, and now the dishwasher, now this kitchen sink is kitchen sink faucet, and kitchen faucet is now leaking, and then, oh yeah, the heat might be up is not really working. And I'm like, wow, maybe I screwed up and didn't close up the house right. So seriously, I said to Karen, I will pay for the faucet because I think I screwed up closing up the house. And then we come to realize that the furnace is probably shutting off, which caused the ambient temperature to hit the same as the outside, which caused probably freezing of the bank.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:57

I think that that's exactly what it was.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:59

As much as Karen apologized to me about a shitty week, I'm like, uh I can deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:04

Yeah, that's fine with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:05

I, you know, it I'm always in my own little space at home. And uh being even here, even just going off and doing work for a while, coming back together. That that's that back and forth where I have to go sit in front of this piece, you should have looking at the laptop for work. Yeah, and then walking out and having a cigar with Todd, or sitting out and screwing around talking to you guys or reading a book or playing on the my work, my personal laptop, playing everything. This is and this is the three of us, yeah. Which makes I don't hit the wall right per se. Right, right. I actually don't hit the wall, it's a lot more stimulus, but yeah, that's the the fuckery was the k it was the house.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:42

It was it was like the fucking money pit is in fact. I'm pretty sure Brett sent in our we have a thread together, me and Todd Nanj and Brett, and I think he sent a money pit gif as we were describing some of the bullshit that was happening. But yes, we have been calling it all week the fuckery. And as we've started to fix things little by little, it's let's fuckery. Let's fuckery. It's gone. So one one more thing today.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:08

One more fuckery, and then we'll go.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:10

Hopefully, we get the HBAC guy to say.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:12

If that's the case, I might come down in May for a work case in again.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:14

Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, hopefully we'll have it done either way, whether, you know, whatever happens. But yes. So that was the fuckery.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:21

Yes, that was the fuckery. Even that I still have three things that are that are great.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:26

Absolutely. And I think that's the point. That really is the point of the three good things, right? It's like we're always gonna have bullshit happening in our lives, but you can always find something good. Yeah, something good, something awesome, something that you're just grateful for a little bit. Yeah. Nice. Well, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:43

Were you still recording?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:44

Oh, I didn't get much sand in my eyes.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:46

No, you didn't. You only like started a cry a couple times. I didn't look into the screen. I'm keeping every one of them in. I'm not editing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:54

You're welcome.