Guest: Andrew Mandzy

Welcome to Wednesday, Teabags!  The At My Kitchen Table team finally met the demands of Andrew Mandzy’s team (green M&Ms only) to make podcast magic happen.  Andrew joins me today to talk about what it took for a risk averse Jersey boy to leave his corporate job this year and pursue something new, and to explore his Ukrainian roots and bicultural upbringing.

He also chats about other stuff – like how he became instant BFFs with my sister, having a shiner for his first presentation in a new role, his business associates Chat & Claude, and how his multilingual family confused a French waiter.

I swear he’s not aloof, so pull up a seat and get cozy!

This week's small business spotlight is on Umber Chocolates.

Find Umber Chocolates on Instagram / Threads: @umberchocolatespgh

Find Umber Chocolates on Facebook: \umberchocolatespgh

Order Umber Chocolates at www.umberchocolatespgh.com

Intro riff by Dale Lytle (concert husband).

All content edited (I use that term very loosely) by Karen Shaak.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This week is at my kitchen table small business about light designs on Umber Chocolates. Umber chocolates is a Pittsburgh-based female and minority-owned company that creates handcrafted luxury chocolates. HP's is a hand painted, edible work of art filled with flavors inspired by books and flavor trends, travels, and imagination. They're almost too pretty, but also too delicious not to. Visit the Umber Chocolates website at www.umberchocolates.com to place in order. I promise you teabags, you will not regret it. They are amazing chocolates, greatest gift, or if you're just trying to treat yourself. Welcome to Wednesday Teabags. The at My Kitchen Table team was finally able to meet the demands of Andrew Mansley's team or green MMs only. So we were able to finally make podcast magic happen. Andrew joins me today to talk about what it took for a risk of a jersey boy to leave his corporate job this year and pursue something new. And to explore his Ukrainian roots and bicultural upbringing and the importance of those in his life. He also talks about other stuff, like how he became instant BFF with my sister, having a shiner for his first presentation in a new role, his business associates, Chat and Claude. And how his multilingual family confused a French waiter. I swear he is not aloof. So pull up a seat and get going. How are the barking things, by the way?

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Good, good. Did I tell you we got a second barking thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

You did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

You did.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

How's that going?

SPEAKER_03 1:36

That's great. He's like a totally different temperament than the older dog. Like way more socialized, like way just friendlier with like everybody and everything. So just like even taking him to the dog park is just like a different experience. Like with the with like the nine-year-old dog, even when she was one, when we would take her to the dog park, you're just like, I'm very attuned to like what she is doing all the time because her body language can change. Like she might, like, three dogs might kind of surround her, and then she's just like, you guys know I'm a pit bull, right? Like, oh, and and that's just how she rolls.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

But this guy, this guy, he's like half Dalmatian, half pit bull, and he's like, I love everyone and everything. Like, we we have like a new dog sitter. We went to the Bahamas for a few days. We have a new dog sitter. And the old dog like walks up to this car that's like picking her up to like go to this place like she's never been, and she's like, Whose car is this? Am I getting in that? I don't know who that is. And the pup's like, Hello, I love you. Like it just like sits on his lap in the front seat. Like, all do I live with you now?

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Do I live with you?

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Are you my new family? I love you. I love you. And my older dog's like, I don't know who you are. Like, I'm gonna be a little bit cautious here.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, could you just take me back to my house real quick? Yeah, I'll stay there.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Really different personalities. Like, even like the the younger one, like he like doesn't bark, and the older dog's like very barky. Like she's like at the fence line barking. She hears another dog on the street, she's barking.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

She's like, Great, you gave me one more thing I have to protect. I already had to protect this house and everything in it. And now I have this dope.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

This idiot just gets in other people's cars, doesn't even care where he's going.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yeah, he's going. He'll sniff any old dog at the dog park. Yeah, very funny. So funny. Thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it very, very much. I know we've been trying to do this for a little bit. As we get started, it would be really awesome if you would take a minute to introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Sure. And I we've been trying to do this for like six months, I think, at this point.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

I wasn't gonna say it, but yeah, it has really been a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

And I think it's because like my when like my team, like we have like a lot of demands. Like it's like green MMs only, like very specific drinks and snacks. Like it's really like we're very specific on what needs to happen in order for me to go on a podcast, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. It took it took a bunch and I had to coerce and yeah, the demands were high.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Yeah, you have to have a bake sale to raise money for like all the things you have to buy for this, like for all the extras. Anyway, so I'm Andrew um from New Jersey, right? Like I'm a born and raised New Jersey guy, but like not Sopranos or Jersey Shore New Jersey. I'm like middle of the road, normal New Jersey, though the town I grew up in had like sprinklings of all of those types of people. We had Sopranosy people, we had Jersey Shore people, and you know, I remember like being in a building in Chicago, and I was telling someone in an elevator that I'm from, like he asked me like where I'm from, and I said I'm from New Jersey. He's like, and it was like when Jersey Shore was like really hitting its stride, and he's like, Is that show is that show real? And I'm like, there's there's not a more real show than that on the television. Those people all exist, they're a thing. I know people like that. Yeah, I know people like that to the point where a buddy of mine from high school who I had like don't really talk to, but like if I saw him, we would chat. His brother married Snooky.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

No, yes, wow, so you're like you're within six degrees of separation. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

I know people who are at like multiple people who are at Snooky's wedding.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Wow. What is really funny though to for me to hear all of that is you are so not Jersey at all. And had I, I mean, I this is new news to me. I had no idea. And this is like you're reminding me now of your older dog. You're very put together in a way that the people around her, the dogs around her, are not. And that's just what you described as yourself, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

My older dog. Yeah, she's my bud. She's my bud. I love that dog.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

All right, snooky of it all aside. Um, anything else in your interest?

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Yeah, I I was definitely like a veer-off course. That's okay into things New Jersey. That was great. Staunch, staunch defender of New Jersey. I'm a Rutgers grad. I have two degrees from Rutgers, one in mechanical engineering, I have an MBA from Rutgers. I live in New Jersey currently, but like just directly across the river from New York City, uh, where I've where I've probably been for the last 20 or so years. I've been in this like triangle of Manhattan, Hoboken. I live in a town called Weehawken now, and I can kind of like see all the homes I've lived in for like the past 20 years. Um when at like honestly, like it's it's kind of funny. I could see where I got married. I got married right on the river in New Jersey, looking across to Manhattan. So I'm a Jersey guy through and through, but like sort of not at the same time. And like I'm I know we're gonna talk about some of those things, but yeah, like I've spent like a almost all of my life living in New Jersey or New York City.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

That's awesome. And now I'm gonna have to add you to my my short list of people that I wave to when I'm in Weehawkin because we do a lot of time in New York City, and sometimes we go to the ferry and just ferry over and walk. Yeah. So I like to wave to Joe Frick. Um, that's my right.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

So he's in the he's in the book.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

He isn't in the book. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

That's what the kids call it.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

They don't probably, but no, but they should. I'm stealing it now.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Um, so I actually got to know you a little bit better from working with you, though very briefly, I would say. But we met actually many years ago when my sister, Angela, did what we like to call take your sister to work day when she was at AMP. And I think that was the first time that I remember being in the orbit of Andrew Manzie. Talk to me a little bit about what it was like working with Ange. I like to shout Ange out on the podcast whenever I can.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Yeah, that's like that makes a ton of sense. I just shout her out in general when I'm walking down the street. Yeah. When I'm here with Ange. So let's go, Angela.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yes. But where were you in your career when the disturbance and the force brought you together with Ange?

SPEAKER_03 8:07

I was in a weird place. Like I I mentioned that I have a mechanical engineering degree. You know, I was always pretty capable, like math and science and kind of analytics. And like I was like pretty heavy into that. And I think going into college, like I was never sure exactly what I wanted to do. And I think my mom probably I think steered me towards like engineering school, like it's in a couple of different ways. Like one, it's like not a bad career to have for one. But two, she's like, it's never really gonna be a problem in your life that you have an engineering degree. Like it's never gonna hurt you in any way. Right. And so did my engineering degree. I ended up getting a job, and like I was never like sold on it as like this is what, like, this is like what I feel in my bones I want to do. But I got a decent job out of school. I worked for Johnson ⁇ Johnson. This is like the year 2000. And I spent like three and a half years working as an engineer at J and J and then walked away from it to like part-time do my MBA, but I also worked my way into a job at like a marketing agency. So I just like needed a full career shift, you know, just like wasn't for me.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

And like the things that I like loved doing were based in like researching topics and like reporting on things and like building an analysis and like much less so like working on machinery that made JJ products. That was like way less interesting to me. And so I ended up working for a marketing agency where I helped build marketing campaigns. I did a ton of account management, and I kind of like weasled my way into like onto the research team there my last year or so. But that research was like really qualitative, where you were sort of building briefs and analyses based on information that like you just like scoured from like all over the place, right? To like build this story of like a campaign or a potential strategy. And like I just wanted something more than that. Like I wanted like to use my brain a little bit more. I'm not saying the people that I worked with weren't highly intelligent, but like I was like, my brain just works a little bit differently. And so like I stumbled upon like the market research world, like of the Nielsen's and the IRIs, like where you're looking at market data, like really deep market data to like tell these like really interesting stories about what's happening in different marketplaces.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

And so I ended up getting an interview, ended up getting a job, but like what happens like as a last step before you're officially hired is the hiring manager for some of these roles, because you're gonna be on site at a client five days a week. The hiring manager puts like the candidate in front of the client, basically the contract holder, to be like, hey, this is who we're hiring. Like we're hiring this person unless you think they suck.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Right. And then like we're not hiring. Yeah. Like we're not, we're not gonna move forward with it.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

No pressure, by the way, in those situations. It's like you now have to impress the hiring company and the client. It's like double duty.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Totally. But like that's that's also the job, too, right? Because like you're working for a big market research firm, but you're on site at a client every single day. Yes. So like you're sitting in like these two worlds where you work for a company, but like you feel more a part of this other company that you is your client. So it's it's a weird, it's a weird thing. It's like people that like have those jobs, like it's a weird balance, and sometimes they don't they don't remember who they work for really. Yeah, it's a really, it's a really hard thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Super relatable. Like I went through it myself because I was on site at at WISE when I worked for Spire.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

So 100%.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

And we could uh probably have done an entire podcast episode about what it is like to work for one company but be on site at another, because it is wild. You're right.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Yeah, it's it's wild, right? And so, as part of that, like I said, part of the interview process is like you get put in front of the client, and that client ultimately has influence and potentially like a hammer they can wield to like keep you out of that. And so I walk into this room, to this office, and it is your sister sitting there across the desk from me. And man, this conversation was I don't know, 30, 40 minutes of us just being like, are we best friends? Because I feel like we're best friends. Right. And so we have a day, it's September 18th. It's uh 2006, is the the first one. So we're coming up on the 20 year anniversary of it.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

September 18th, we call AM Square Day. It is Angela's birthday one. Yes, it is also the day we started working together, my first day like having Angela as my client. So it's AM Square Day.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

I love it. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

That's a great story.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

And then the rest is history because she she did like you, which worked out.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah, and that's uh like indirectly led to why I'm even here because you wouldn't even know I exist otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

I wouldn't. I would. I mean, I would love to think that the universe would put certain people on my path, but I think you're kind of right.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

I don't spend a ton of time in Jersey, so yeah, it's weird because like I I met my like it's just the like diverse, like I met my wife on a night where like my buddy, like basically like our friends were dating, but they were like living in like my buddy and his girlfriend were like were for like living in a different country. They came, they invited a bunch of people out, and my wife happened to be living in New York, and like he invited me out, and like I just happened to come. I always think about like what happened if I was like hung over and didn't feel like going, or like just like didn't go or had another set of plans and like just like the butterfly effect of like what that would be like. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's it's kind of interesting, yeah. And like you wouldn't be in my life, you know, like in like sort of this like market research Angela thing. Yeah, like you guys like wouldn't be in my life, and that would be weird.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

I know it totally would. I feel the same way about like Bob, like Bob's in my life because of of Ange as well. Yeah, lots of great butterfly effect connections, I would say. Yeah, from Ange. So interestingly, I one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about today was like your career and the fact that it did seem to me from outside looking in that it was like this confluence between like data analysis, account management, and ultimately sales. I mean, when we worked together, you were definitely in a sales role. Is that like a safe assessment or like a good assessment of how your career ended up progressing from there?

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Yeah, it's like I think about it a little bit differently. Okay. So like I think about it like let's skip like the engineering kind of thing, right? And like talk about like the last 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Is first is like data, right? Like I was in data all the time. Like I was helping build category stories. Like I was telling the guy who ran the shampoo category at AP, like what his biggest opportunities were. And you know, you like build these like reports and templates and you're doing analysis, and like you meet wonderfully smart people like your sister Angela and like Bob James, and like these like wonderful people who like show you how to take data and make it sing. Like, I still use Bob's line line about, you know, if you're essentially it is like paraphrasing, you know, it's just noise if it's just a bunch of instruments playing different things, right? Like you want to make music, right? So, like, how do you take different sources of information, put them together, tell a story, and not just report the weather, but say, here's what it like you need to do as a result of seeing this. So it's like a really taking data and being really consultative about it. And what I think helped me be successful in that role was like not a lot of people were doing that, like putting the puzzle pieces together. They were just kind of reporting the news, saying, This is up, this is down, these guys have more share, these guys have less share, right? Like it's like it was like just like reporting information back and not saying, all right, what do I do? Like, all right, well, let's think about like other pieces of information we could bring into this as well, other data sources, like other factors, like bringing in the retailers' internal data into it and say, like, why does this matter? Building those stories was is like has always been so interesting to me and so fun for me. Yeah, that like I was like kind of just on a wave there, where it was of like a very successful set of years at at that company at Nielsen. And I liked it a lot. It was fun, like to be able to come in and tell a room full of people. And like the telling a story is is hard in and of itself, especially when it comes to data, because you can you see it, I'm sure, I'm sure you've seen this a million times. Like someone shows up with this slide, and it's the first time a client is seeing it, or someone is seeing it, and they're like, What the hell is all this stuff on here? Like, what am I like? What am I looking at? Yep, what are those numbers? And you're just like, people have to like squint and like walk up to the screen, and like there's no story on it. It's just like a bunch of information, and like there's no like there's no story. So, like, I think I learned working with Angela and just kind of like my own instincts of like, how do I tell stories with with information?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, love that. And then from go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, and so how did that morph into because you didn't obviously stay doing that for like the whole you know 20 years?

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Yeah. So there were other pieces like within the company, you know, there are like other opportunities that presented themselves. So like I started just like a guy on site at a client, and then they're like, all right, well, you're like you're you're okay with this. So like, do you want to like just run a bunch of clients and have like the on-site just like report up into you? And then you're like a player coach, yep. Like helping, helping them, like guiding them. Like, yeah, I'd love to do that. And then uh they asked me to take on a role uh where we won a consumer brand business, and the executives at that company were like everything in our previous data provider and market research team just felt really tactical, and nobody was leveling up the conversation to to tell us like what we should be thinking about, why we should be thinking about it, and like what should we do about some of these like bigger, media, strategic questions that are out there in this world? And they were like an OTC kind of like over-the-counter medication company. And there's like their executives, like, we want someone to like go like be this person. And they're like, Well, what is that? What does that mean from role? They're like, we don't know. We just want someone to be here and tell us stuff, right? Like it's like that's literally how it was defined. The executive team at my company like asked me to go do that role. Like, we've seen enough of you that we know you can just go kind of feel this out and mind this and like work your way into this role. And I remember the first time I presented to them, uh, it was like in front of like a bunch of their executives. Like the first time I was meeting these people, and I played it was like in the winter, it was like December or something like that. And I played a soccer game, like I played like soccer pretty competitively, and I had a game the night before and got hit in the face with a ball, like in the eye, in the eyeball with a ball. And I had the worst shiner, like just the like like I was in a bar fight, yeah, like kind of shiner. And I was like, look, I'm gonna look a little different next time you see me, but just know, like I'll be uh we'll be good. We'll be good together.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah, don't there's nothing to see here. Don't worry about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Nothing to see here, nothing to see here. First rule about fight club. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, you can't talk about fight club, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

And so, like, that was a cool role too. And it's just because it like it didn't exist, right? Like it was just like there was no model for it, there was no job description. They're like, this is what they want. Like, go, they're they're paying for this person, like in their contract, like go do that. Yeah, and so like that to me just had this element of like, all right, I'm not just looking at data and like building analyses. Like, I'm I have to like figure out what's important to executives now, like marketing people and research people and insights people, and like the guy who run the runs the sales team for this company, like kind of figure out like what they care about and like how do I come back and tell them things that are important to them, right? And so, like, that's like a like a like a level up, and like while we were certainly dealing with senior people when I was working with Angela, like this was just like different because there was no guideline for it.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

And and so that to me is really fun. Like I I work pretty well in ambiguity, but I do like to build frameworks that I have like guardrails to work with because like I do not work well where everything is chaotic and like there's no path, there's like no path. Like I need a framework, but I don't need all the detail in the framework, like a general feel for like what where I need to go, and like I'll make my way there.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yeah. It's one of the things that I am finding absolutely fascinating because I didn't even pick up on this necessarily when we chatted for background, right? I'm listening to you talk about that role and moving into it from what you did at the start for Nielsen and the common denominator really does sound like the fascination of doing something that hadn't really been done much prior. It was like it gave you the opportunity to sort of build out what that looks like.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

And so it's funny because that to me is now the tie-in for I'm gonna actually skip some, some, some stuff. I wanna kind of get to this. You at the beginning of this year, you made a choice to leave a corporate job and to start doing something else. And how you had started describing that move to me sounds so similar to some of the patterns of what I'm hearing you talk about in your previous career. Do you think that that is subconscious or do you think that that's intentional? Moving towards things that you have that level of control to build out from a framework?

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Like I've thought about this a lot. And like I think I don't do well when I feel like I'm lost in a crowd.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Right? Like I don't I don't do well. Like if I'm just like one of many doing something, you know, like I boring's not the right word. I don't think that's the right word, but it's like it doesn't do anything for me.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Like it recharges me like to be like, I go kind of like figure this out. Like this like business problem out or this question. Like go try and figure out the answer or like try and make this into something, which is funny because I like the way I'm we're just like framing it right now, like I never thought of it myself that way.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

Because I've like I'm ri fairly risk averse, like as a person. And I generally like stability, but like I guess like the like there's like an underlying current of I get really inspired when I have to like go figure things out.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah. Well, and I think to your point though, it there you did say you like a framework. And I do feel like what I'm hearing at least is there were frameworks involved with these things. So even though the details might have been a little bit opaque, it it kind of gave you some freedom in your risk-averse personality to sort of play a little bit because you still had that framing.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Yeah. And like it's the framing is for me to not veer off course, you know, like I think a lot and just kind of stay within like boundaries that you define. But like, I mean, we could talk about like what I've been doing like the last few months as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Yeah, I definitely want to get there for sure.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

But like, let me like you would sort of ask like the my career arc and like and so like my and then after that kind of like thought leadership role where I was like just had to tell executives some stuff, you know. I think like that was like pretty successful. And then they asked me just to be like the leader of like the health and wellness practice at Nielsen. Okay. And that was like, okay, what do we think is important in this space? Like, what do we think is critical to talk about? Like, how do we talk about it? What are like our point of view on these things? So I could like build out a story and like and link that back to Nielsen products and services while also being the face of health and wellness at Nielsen for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Yeah, it was super fun though, because I'm extroverted to a point, but like I'm actually like a little bit of an introvert, I think.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

But like I'm extremely comfortable in rooms speaking to groups of people. Like it's just like it's something like I'm I'm I'm good at. I like I get energy off of it. It feels really good to like be in a room presenting, whether it be work-related or just like socially out and about. Like it like it makes me like it recharges me for sure. And like, but I'm also like an I can be an introvert if, you know, in in definitely in some situations. And so I like I said, I did the health and wellness thing for a while. I presented at conferences, I did media interviews, I did a lot of thought leadership. We like published a lot of stories. We did, you know, we wrote white papers about over-the-counter allergy medication. You know, it's like we did like really fun, interesting things. And I worked with the communications team at Nielsen and the PR team and a lot of different groups. And then like I got in front of clients and I started telling these health and wellness stories. And my goal was to like veer people into products and services that Nielsen sells. I wasn't just like a evangelizer, right? And so, but I had no sales quota to hit. I was just like the guy, the person who like walked into a room and like started a conversation or finished a conversation. Like, and so then, like to kind of like frame the arc, like the story arc again of Angela, your sister, gives me a call and she's like, I've been waiting to call you for a while, but I think you'd be really good at sales. Right. Like I'd never had a sales position before, and I was like 40 years old, yeah, right. And so I'd never been in sales, but like I had like the instincts for it, but just not the formal training in it. And she's like, why don't you come over to where I am, like running a team focused on CPG retail and ad tech? And like I think you'd be really good at it. And and so I was in this data space, but like generally, like I would take clients to the point of doing something about it. And like this next phase was like the doing something part, which is like digital marketing and campaign measurement and like activating on insights and like building these like marketing strategies and stories, right? Like, and like finding the right audiences of people to talk to and finding them on Facebook and Twitter and like or whatever it's called today, and like all these like platforms like Pinterest and like on-site and retail, like building these stories, like sort of building these strategies. It was frankly, it was like it made sense to me, but like I was lost for a while because it's like a completely different language. Yeah, you're dealing with ad agencies, which I'd never done. You're dealing with Meta and like Facebook and Pinterest and all these companies that are just like, you know what they are and you know what they do, but it's like they just speak a different language. Totally. Right. And it was like very uncomfortable for me, and it was really fast moving. And I felt a step behind for the first six months and like kind of finally got my legs, right? Like after about six months, but it's like drinking from the fire hose, like I said, just speaking a different language, right? And it's it's it's hard, it's like it's really hard work. And Oracle as a company is like demanding and they move fast, and well, at least that part of Oracle did, right? And it's like a it was a different type of sales versus like getting a contract that has like a dollar amount attached to it. It's more evangelizing and finding the agency that works with a client or the Facebook team or like trying to figure out like how to work your way and like worm your way through all these organizations, which like I hadn't done, and it was like not I hadn't done in that way.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

And like I struggle, I struggle, and it was hard on me for sure. You know, I wasn't used to like feeling lost, like completely lost, but it took about six months to like really find my way.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah. Probably some of the things that you're talking about though, just with respect to your personality and how you are comfortable in rooms and talking to people, whether it is for a job or whether it is for social situations, is super helpful as you kind of do, at least in my opinion, it's helpful as you're trying to fake it till you make it a little bit. Yeah. Because I think if you're uncomfortable talking to people in those ways, I think it makes that what you're describing so much more difficult.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Agreed. Yeah. So like I think my ability to read a room is pretty good. Yeah. I'm also someone told me this and like I didn't think about this. And they're like, you don't talk a lot in meetings, but when you talk, like it's valuable.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

You know, and I'm like, oh, thank you. Like that to me is like an amazing compliment. And so I I like that, even when I'm not the most senior person in the room, and a lot of cases I'm not. That landed well with me.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah. And I would actually totally agree with that. I think it it that describes you very, very well. And I will tell you, one of the things that I have always found interesting about you, particularly as I got to know you a little bit better, it and it took me a minute. I found you to be slightly intimidating when I met you. Oh, yeah. And I think that's partially why. I think it's because you don't necessarily speak up a ton in a room, but when you do, everything that you say has intent, it has meaning, it comes out intelligently. So you are almost in on this level of like unfuckwithable, if for lack of a better way to put it. Like, and you're always so, again, observationally, you're always very put together. You seem like you show up in spaces with intent. It almost is like part of an identity. You are very professional, you're very buttoned up, you know your shit. And that's like that encapsulates you. And I don't get intimidated by people super easily.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

It must be my my physical frame because I'm like 5'9175, and it's just like basically a freight train, you know, like you don't you don't want you don't want this.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

You don't want any of this.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

You don't want any of this. You want the smoke? No. And that's so funny. I think part of it is like a lot of times I'm sitting in a room and I'm just in my own head. Like I'm not saying anything because I'm like in my own head thinking about random. I could be thinking about something random or like thinking about what's going on in the room, but like or trying to avert eye contact with and trying to avert eye contact.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

It's like one of my the hardest things to do in the world.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

But like that could also be interpreted as like aloofness, too, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:06

And it's like, no, I would never have said you were aloof. I think for me, I think part of the intimidation factor is because I value intelligence so highly, I think that's probably part of it. I always thought you were fun. Like, so I never, never aloof, but definitely fun guy, and you're hilarious. So there's that too. Thanks. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Um, but yeah, anyway, Oracle, difficult. That was a difficult transition for you into sales. When you moved on from that, did you stay in sales or did you kind of revert to? Yeah, you did.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Okay. So I think like I was at Oracle, it was like 2017. I started, like at the end of 2017, let's just call it 2018. 2018, I started, and I left in the middle of 2020 during COVID when like my revenue went to zero, basically. And so like I was just like um a name on a spreadsheet that was just deleted from the spreadsheet. Yeah. And I left. And what was interesting was your sister fired me, even though it was not her decision to do so, but she like wanted to be the one that did it. Right. Um, because it came from like three levels above her, and she's like, nope, let me do it. I brought him here where you know, BFF's like, let me just go do this.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

And so and so, like that morning, my wife and I were actually walking over to a house we bought that we were gut renovating to talk about how much the new dormer was gonna cost that like we wanted to build. And go to my wife, I'm like, I just got fired. Right, I just got fired. And she's like, and her answer was amazing. She's like, Okay, you'll get another job. Let's go like go talk to the contract. Let's go, let's go back and it's like part of it too, is like she has a she has a really good job herself, and you know, so it's not like soul crushing like in those moments, but it's like it's not a great feeling either.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

It's still a hit, right? It's still the ego, right? For sure.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

So we it's a weird feeling. What's funny is that by the end of that day, I had another job offer.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

That's so crazy.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

Later by the end of that day, and it just happened to be a company that I worked with when I was at Nielsen doing the health and wellness thing, and I just reached out to their sales lead. I'm like, hey, what's going on over there? I'm kind of looking for like something new. And he's like, seriously, you want to work here? I'm like, Yeah. And he's like, Cool, we're looking for a sales guy. You're hired, let's just figure out the terms. And so, like six days later, like everything was like signed and sealed, and like we're going.

unknown 33:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

And it's like part of the my wife is pregnant, and like, you know, I was the health insurance in the family. So like I just like felt tension, even though like my wife's response was like pretty pretty chill. Yeah, it was pretty chill. And so then I worked for that company, and it was like this like hundred-person company that was like I loved, I loved the owners, I love the people, the co-founders, I loved the people there. It was just like the culture was just fantastic, just like a really tight knit group, and it was like a data company as well. Like they like they created like attributes for products, right? And like basically by taking everything on a package and like deconstructing it and like building it back up, saying, what's true and not true about this box of Cheerios or like or this like snack bar or whatever, right? And it was like a really powerful company because then you start combining it with sales data and all these other signals and like e-commerce search. And you know, this is a really cool story about like what's trending, like from an ingredient standpoint and types of claims that are being made on packages and like attributes of products, right? It's really fun, especially like in that health and wellness space. Anyway, so I worked with them for a bit and then they got sold. Yes, bought them. Nielsen bought them.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

No way, yeah. I didn't even know.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Nielsen bought them, yeah. Wow, it's a full circle, full circle. And so I went back to Nielsen, but just as like a sales guy with his team. And it was interesting because you're like, it was a lot of the same people were there, you know, not a lot of time had passed. And like you could, you know, it's like when you get back together with an ex, you're like, oh, I remember why we liked it. I was like, I remember this is cool. Yeah, I like it, right? I feel more seasoned, I feel sharper, I know a lot more, like I'm a sales guy now, right? And like it, and so very different than just like an analyst and like an account manager type role. But then you're like, oh, wait, I remember why we broke up.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Right. And so as I was selling some of the cool stuff that the Nielsen team was selling, like with this like company they just acquired and these other like assets, we were talking about, like selling like these like e-commerce specific solutions and this product data along with sales data. It was like really fun to go and talk about this. But then I got like a call from a recruiter to work with this like Seattle-based company that was taking all of that data and just like and building this like whole e-commerce analytics and retail analytics capability. And they'd been in business for a few years, but they were looking for like seasoned sellers that like knew data, knew how to like build big deals with big companies. Um, and so I took that role through the end of 2025.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Right. So like to put to land the plane that's been flying for for some time now. So like I went from data to digital marketing, right? Like kind of into this, into this like world where it was like data again, but like peppered with e-commerce, like into this full e-commerce world. So I was like almost following these like trends as they were bubbling up, right? So like in like using like big data to tell stories, right? Then it was like digital marketing was really taking hold. Like, cool, digital marketing. Now I'm in that space now. Now I'm like in e-commerce world. And it's funny, like, we're gonna talk about sort of what I've been doing the last four months, but I've been getting hit with a by a lot of recruiters and like with some really, really interesting job opportunities that I'm pursuing related to AI.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Right. And so, like, very specific to AI. Like, how do you work with those same companies and build automate workflows and processes? How do you like take all the data on Earth and like refine it and like put this like really sharp analysis in front of a CMO and everything he needs to know about his business, right? Like using AI as like the foundation. So it's like I've like, I feel like I've done like an okay job whether by I've like fallen into it or like instinctively followed these like trends and like been at like the not leading edge, but like like kind of like on the latest and greatest thing and like kind of following that path.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yeah. So you feel really good about that, and you have like amassed all of this knowledge, and then you decide to make a pretty big shift at the end of 2025. Yeah. And so I want to I want you to talk about what that shift is and what you've been doing, but I also want to kind of consider the lens of what what goes through your head when you do that? What are some of the you know, fears or concerns or how do you adjust? And then also, does your professional identity shift?

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Yeah. So I'll give the the context first.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

My wife and I, over the last seven or eight years, I like bought real estate properties. Not a ton. Like we own three investment properties. My wife and my wife runs a real estate company in New York, but like in a in a very different way. Like we started buying real estate. First, like we lived in a two-family that we bought and we rented the upstairs and we lived in the downstairs, uh, which is in New Jersey, like in the same town I live in. We bought a three-family unit in Newark, New Jersey, in this like section of town called the Ironbound, like based on us hearing some anecdotes of people from Brooklyn kind of moving into the Ironbound neighborhood, just to like cheaper cost of living. Then we bought like post-COVID, we're like, oh, well, people aren't like flying much anymore. Like, so we bought a place in the Poconos, like in a lake community, right? It's like very like mom and pop, like kind of instinct driven, just anecdotally driven. Oh, we know these people who bought a place in the Poconos and it's worked out well for them. Like, let's hook two and we buy a place. And it was like my wife and I were just like always felt we're like, we can like probably do more than just like instinctively buy places, right? We can, you know, like find other markets, we can look at data, we can just kind of like we just feel like it was very instinctive and like it did fine for us, but it's like we we feel like there could there could be more there. And so my wife asked me sometime last year, she's like, would you leave your job and like think about like what does real estate investing look for us and like how do we build it into something that is different than just like kind of instinctively buying properties, right? And like using my data analytics capabilities, my sales capabilities, and I'll get into like why I think sales is really relevant there. My like ability to like network and like pull people in from different walks of life and different professions and like build like an infrastructure of people that we can tap into. She's like, would you go do that and like go find places that aren't in New Jersey or within 90 minutes driving of our house and like go do that? I'm like, no, like going back to my risk averseness. I'm like, oh no, I don't like this. Feels super uncomfy. This feels super uncomfortable. I'm very uncomfortable. But the year goes along, I wasn't having like the best year sales-wise at like my previous at my previous company. And like you start kind of like thinking about like you start like using AI tools to think of like help you think through some of this stuff. And like just even doing some analysis on your own. You're like, if you invest in this much real estate now, and we have like a little capital set aside to like build this out, if I did this now versus in 10 years, like what's the difference? The numbers are pretty startling, like those are big differences, right? Like, if I just like do this and I feel like I'm done with my career, or like now, and I'm like, I don't know, that's not all that different than how much I'm making now. Plus, if you think about things like the tax implications of you being self-employed, like you kind of like designating yourself as like a real estate professional, all these things, like you're like numbers kind of work out. Yeah, you're sitting within a range, you're on a W-2, you're paying a ton in taxes, and you're like, I don't know, maybe I'll do this, right? Like maybe I'll do this. And so, like, it took some coaxing. Not like my wife was like pitching all the time, but like it took myself, I coaxed myself, right? Like, I like you know, like same, like I'm a framework guy. Like, I need to know, like, okay, I'm not just gonna go do this and just chase properties all over the country. Yeah, like I'm a strategy first, like, and then like let's build the plan around the strategy. So, like, I I left my job in early January, and my goal is like, I want to use data, I want to use information, I want to essentially think about it like I am building sales organization in the sense that I need to build a sales funnel because like the way this real estate game works is it's all about deal flow, right? Because like if you run the numbers on some place you see on Zilla, you're like, I'm not investing in this because like it doesn't cash flow, it doesn't do what I need it to do. But it's like so I built this framework of saying I am looking for these types of multifamily properties that cash flow at 7% a year. It's called like cash on cash. I'm not gonna bore like the sort of nuance of the numbers, but like, and I'm going to like find these properties and I'm gonna find them in this way. I'm gonna build a network of people in the markets I want to invest in. And I had to figure out what those markets are. All right, like I'm gonna build this network of people in these markets I want to invest in. I'm gonna find people who deal with out of state investors, like brokers. I'm gonna find contractors that I can lean into. I want to find property managers if I need to use property managers. I want to find handymen, I want to find electricians, I want to find mortgage lenders, I want to find all these people that can help me get deals like like deal flow, right? Because it's like a numbers game for every hundred deals that you assess, you might make offers on like five.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:22

So five percent, let's say. Like, so if you're at five percent, that means like you need deals to be in front of you. So you need people to know you're serious, people need to know you know what you're doing, people need to know that you will act. So, like my goal is like I need to build a sales funnel. And then in that sales funnel, like you need to quickly assess like how real something is very quickly, right? And so if I'm assessing a hundred things, I can't spend three hours assessing this is a good deal or not. I need to know right out of the gate like, is this something I'm willing to pursue? Right. So I'm like, eventually I get to this thing where I get serious out of a hundred, I get serious about. Two places.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

And so I make offers on five, but get serious about two. And like, how do I start building that? So, like, to me, it was really entrepreneurial. It was very data-based. So, I started also like, what data do I need to start making these decisions? Right. And then like finding that data, bringing that in, like I said, building those networks and like building templates and like models to say, all right, this deal's coming into me at this, like, based on number crunch, number crunch, number crunch. Like it's half a million dollars for this property, based on my criteria, based on my strategy, based on what I'm doing, I will not pay more than $430,000 for this place. Right. And like, and then unemotionally walk away from it when they counter me it for 60. Yeah. Right. And so about, right? Because it doesn't fit my strategy. So build a strategy, figure out like how you execute that strategy and like essentially build an org to do this. Right. So like it took everything that I've been doing, like all put into this specific use case of like buying real estate.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah. You built a framework.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Built the framework.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

He built you a framework. Look at you.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Yeah. Yeah. And my but like my wife is like, she's a doer. She's like very action-oriented. Like I'm a framework guy, and then I'm action-oriented post-framework building. And so, like on the third day, or like if there's like the second day, I think I took like a like my first day of being a real estate investor. Like, I don't think I really did anything. But like day two, like I started building the framework.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

And my wife was like ready to go into New York into the office. And she's like, What are you doing? I'm like, I'm building a PowerPoint on like what it is we do. And she's like, Oh man, are you just going to be like analyzing data all the time and not actually buying real estate? And I'm like, no. Like, I need to know what I'm doing though. Like, I need to like, I need to have the guidelines and the guardrails of what this is.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Because if I don't know what this is, then I'm just chasing shit everywhere. And I don't work well when I'm chasing shit everywhere. Because I think I have some form of ADD, but like I don't like undiagnose, but like I can get really scattered really fast. Like if I if I'm not really locked in on what it is I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Well, you said it before. You don't like the chaos. I don't like the chaos. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

I like organized chaos. I don't like true chaos. True chaos. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Talk a little bit about how you define productivity. How has that changed? Shifting from corporate to something entrepreneurial. Or has it?

SPEAKER_03 46:37

It it hasn't changed much, but it's just like I defined, I defined what it means. Like it's not me updating my Salesforce records and like all my deals and like because uh my boss has a meeting Friday morning with the CEO to like go through all the deals, right? Like that's like, but it's like uh building like real, I mean, real goals on like what what I want to do.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Yeah. So did it wig you out a little bit though, how the structure of your day shifted, like how that changed for you.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

Yeah, yeah. Like way less conference calls, which is like weird. I was also like not in front of clients. I was not like getting on airplanes as much, too. So that was like a really interesting change, but I also kind of turned to tools like Chat GPT and Claude to like frame my day for me as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

Right. So like every morning I'd be like walking dogs, and I would just like in my earbuds, like just click like a voice memo into a chat GPT and be like, here are the five things I must do today to continue this and be like, map my day out. And like these tools know me well enough to like know how I work and know how I flow, just to be like, okay, for you, you need like a quick win in the morning. Like you gotta get a yes or no on this today. Like, first thing you do when you sit down and don't do anything until that. And then like move on to this, move on to this, move on to this, move on to this. Start this, and here are the things you should start. Like, here are the two steps you could take to start this big meaty thing you have. Like, do these two things in that big meaty thing. And like that will be a successful day. So I've been like framing my days up like that in order to like move the needle. It's hard, but like I like I really purposely try to organize each one of my days around progress, whatever that means, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Okay. Where are you right now to goal for your year?

SPEAKER_03 48:26

Like a mortgage just got approved for a building we're buying in Columbus, Ohio.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Love it.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

I ran the numbers, and like what I've been doing too in parallel is like as I run my numbers and I run my models, I then bring it into Chat GPT. It's been kind of like watching all this stuff with me. And I'm like, here's a deal. I just analyzed, here's the address, here's this, here's that, here's that, here's that. And I give as much information as possible. And Chat GPT goes, Of all the deals you brought me, this is the first one that I'm telling you to pursue a place. Like just literally in those words. Like he and like Chat GPT is like everything you've kind of like been a even though like you're conservative and how you like underwrite these things, you're kind of like trying to sometimes force the square peg into the round hole. Like I'm paraphrasing about it sets me, but this is like this person. I'm like, go do this, please.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 49:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Yeah. Chat GPT's your buddy.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Yeah, my buddy. It's like my real estate like your partner, yeah. Yeah, it's very, very funny. But it's like I I use these tools extensively. Yeah. Like these like productivity tools have been extremely helpful. I don't know that I would have done this necessarily without having access to tools like that. Yeah. That can like speed my decision making, like by whatever factor that it does, but it's significant. Yeah. Significant factor.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

And even as I've gone, like I flew to Columbus, I flew to Indianapolis, but like this place that we're buying, like I hadn't seen it. I literally didn't see it. I didn't like, but I went, I flew out for the inspection. But like as I went through Columbus and I visited like dozens of properties in Indianapolis the same, I literally would just talk into ChatGPT, be like, okay, I'm at this listing now. Here's the link. And I like send the link. I'm like, I'm gonna tell you everything I see as I'm walking the property. And it's like my little note taker and also feedback mechanism, right? And then like at the end of the day, be like, all right, let's review the eight properties we saw. We would just go back through it and like I would have like my numbers that I've run, and ChatGPT would like tell me what it sees in the numbers based on what it knows, and like we kind of like come to a consensus, be like, go no go, go, no, go, like make an offer on this. And I'm like, my model says like I'm not offering more than four 10 on this. Be like, good, go with that, right? And like we build like an offer strategy, and like it's it's really like insanely helpful, like insanely helpful capability.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Yeah. It's what's interesting is like as you're describing all of the things that it's doing. I mean, it really is like a like a partner or almost like an employee. It's like your own little research assistant, right? That you just get to use for free.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

Yeah, and it's it's been really like I said, it's really helpful. I don't, I think I would have been really overwhelmed had I not had access to tools like that to help you build and think it through.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 51:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

I also want to go back to one of the things that you were talking about. I know you said this property in particular, you you would sight unseen, you would, you would never seen it. One of the things that I thought was really interesting when you talked to me in our background session about you making this move was part of you being intentional about investing was to intentionally not be the remote investor who sits back at his desk in New Jersey and doesn't actually go to places. You like to experience the places. Can you just talk a little bit about why that's important? What kind of information do you feel like you're gleaning when you actually go to these places?

SPEAKER_03 51:50

Yeah, there's um I've heard just like you listen to like a real estate podcast or something like that, and you like hear people talk about like even like the the the place in Columbus, like that person who bought that place had literally never been to Columbus, never seen the property, just like bought it and like thought it was just gonna be this cash flow machine. And like some people operate like that for sure. Sure. But when they know a market, like I am not that person at all. You know, I am a person who like I'd never been to Columbus, Ohio until February of this year. And it's because when when you're buying real estate, like there's numbers, there's data, right? Like, and you assess the hard numbers that are in front of you, and like that guides your decision making. But it's I don't know, Google Maps can only tell you so much about what this, like where this property is. I need to like walk around some neighborhoods, I need to drive through places, I need to kind of feel a city before like I I really understand it, and especially if I'm gonna invest money in it. And then like as you start looking at properties, you're like, all right, where am I going to the grocery store? Yeah. Right? Like, where am I parking? Right? Like, what's like the people walking around? Like, what are like what's going on here? Like, what do they look like? Is there like trash just kind of sitting around or like the dumpsters full? Like, like those types of things like influence like how much rent you can get for a place or like what a place is worth. And and so to me, there's an art to this, right? As well as like a hard as hard numbers. And I just need to like feel it as well as like understand it analytically. All right, like where's the park? Where's like the school? Where's the grocery store? How far is that? Is it like a weird drive? Do I have to like go underneath a highway? You know, it's just like like the logistics of living. Like I like I need to understand that a little bit more because then I can think about all right, what do I need to improve in the apartments? What like like do I want to buy this place? Because they're like very intangible things that you can't quantify on like a financial model.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Yeah. Makes total sense. Google Maps can tell you how far the grocery store is, but can't tell you this is what this traffic looks like at all times. And it's on this side of the street. Wow. It's like, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I actually, when you first told me about it, I was like, that I don't understand why everybody doesn't do it that way. I don't, that's weird to me.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

It's weird to me. You're like, I'm just gonna buy this thing, this structure.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

Like I need to know what it looks like. And then, but you also have like, you know, I flew out for this place we're buying, like I flew out for the inspection. And like the bro, my broker's like, well, you don't need to come for the inspection. I'm like, we've never seen this place.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

And like one of the things we uncovered, which is which is insane, like three of the apartments were empty. So I think they got rid of some of the tenants, but the one person that was left was like a walking health code violation.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Oh, Jesus. Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

Like we got into his apartment and we're like, oh my God. Like, I've never seen anything like it. It was like a hoarder with like two cats, and he hoarded all the cat's shit because the cat's shit was literally everywhere. And I'm like, I walked out of the inspection. I'm like, I don't want that guy living here when I'm when I buy this. Right. And like, and like we changed the contract. We're like, get rid of him. Yeah. And so, like, that's just like a nuance of like being on the ground, like finding these things that can really make like what seems like a good deal on paper, like, not a good deal.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Um, so I kind of want to shift gears a little bit. And one of the things that we had discussed in our background Zoom is sort of the influence of your wife on this decision, but also going back even a number of years, just being able to like get to know you as a human being and just the absolute adoration that you have for your wife. So it this goes beyond just like her professional influence, right? It's also just personal influence. One of the things I remember that sticks out in my mind is that you've joked about how you leveled up when you married her, that you don't know why you're like, I don't know why she's leveling down, but I leveled up when I married her. You have a deep respect for her, right? And so now you're working with her professionally as well. Talk a little bit about how did you guys meet and talk a little bit about how your cultural identity is sort of one of the things that brought you together.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

Yeah. Well, I mean, we met because of my cultural identity. So background and context, I guess for everyone who's listening who likely does not know who I am. Yep. Um some will. Some will. Angela.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

And um, if she listens to this, but yeah, you know, my background is like I'm Ukrainian ethnically, and my family on both sides came after World War II. Um, and really it was like very simply put, when like in World War II, like Ukraine was caught in the middle, but my family is all Western Ukrainian, like they're all from Western Ukraine, where is now Western Ukraine today. But when World War II started, that was Eastern Poland, right? And so technically they were all Polish citizens, but ethnic Ukrainians living within Poland.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

And so they were all like had Polish passports, and so when the war started, that you know, the Germans rolled through Poland and like through Ukraine into Russia, and then the Soviets pushed back, and there were hundreds of thousands of like Ukraine, like patriotic Ukrainians and like nationalists who fled with the Germans because the Soviets were just killing everybody. And so, you know, kind of a funny world where you're like, no, these guys are worse than the Nazis. Yeah. And so it's a weird thing, right? It's like the Soviets were were pretty brutal, and like we see that playing itself out today. But anyway, so like there's this big, like, big contingent of people that kind of spread themselves out across the world, whether it be across Europe or North America. North America was like a big destination for those groups of people, and they settled into these like little enclaves like the East Village in New York, and then there's like the Ukrainian village in Chicago, and like Toronto has a Ukrainian village. It's just like these like pockets of like Ukrainians who had come previously, and they just settled into those like neighborhoods like Detroit, Philadelphia, DC, and like in New Jersey, like Buffalo, Cleveland, you know, all these places.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Like just I was gonna say, you keep not, you not, you're not mentioning Pittsburgh, and I swear to you, we have.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

I'm not mentioning Pittsburgh because like the Pittsburgh Ukrainian push was very world after World War I.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 58:30

It's very different. And so like this was like a different group of people that came after World War II. And so I know a couple people from Pittsburgh, like that were like in my orbit, but like it wasn't like a huge, it was like Cleveland and Buffalo were way bigger than interesting Pittsburgh. Yeah, like significantly bigger. Yeah, I mean Detroit, all these cities, like definitely bigger than Pittsburgh. Okay, doesn't mean I I mean, doesn't mean in all of Pittsburgh. It's fine. It's fine if you know that I'm in Pittsburgh.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

It's okay. I just knew we had a a population here of Ukrainian Americans not realizing that they predated World War II.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

So yeah, it was like interesting. They were much more like blue-collar, like miners and like steelworkers and things like that. Makes total sense. Yeah, makes perfect sense. And so so I grew up in this world of like this Ukrainian diaspora, you know, where these groups kept all uh kept their youth organizations and sports clubs and their like they bought land like in upstate New York and in Ohio and in all these places where they had summer camps, or they had these like resorts. And so like I just grew up in this world, like where like that was my life, where I went to Ukrainian school on Saturday, and I went to like I played for like the same Ukrainian soccer team for like like through my whole youth, yeah, even through adulthood. And it's just like what I knew, right? And so like I was the person in school where like my friends are like, all right, man, we'll we'll see you in September, I guess. You're just not gonna be here like all summer because you're just gone at like Ukrainian camps and all these things. There's actually a town in New Jersey called Wildwood Crest in the 1960s, and like the Ukrainians, like those like post-World War II Ukrainians from Philadelphia started buying like property there, and they started going down there and they started inviting people like towards the end of the summer to like come down because like all the camps were over and it was like sort of heading towards the end of the summer, like late August. And so people started going down and they started going down like the same week every single year. And that tradition has persisted to this day. Really? Where the same week every year, it's like one full week before Labor Day weekend.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:39

Not like the days, not like the five days leading up to Labor Day weekend, but like the week prior, thousands of people descend upon Wildwood Crest and just occupy this massive like chunk of beach and just all hang all day and like go to the boardwalk at night. And like, so it's like people you've known your whole life. My parents go, my sisters go, like people I've known for 45 years go. It's like the same week every year, like to the point where when you check out of your motel, like if they have these like these old like 1950s style motels there, yeah. Like when you check out, they're like, Are you coming back next year? Because you basically keep your room for the following year. Wow. And you're like, Yep, we're coming back, right? And so it's like just the world I have always occupied. And so my wife, like my buddy, who's like me, grew up in New Jersey, same cultural upbringing, moved to Ukraine, and he started dating someone, and that someone and my wife went to university together.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

And so we met because my buddy and his girlfriend flew to New York for Christmas in 2011, and my wife was already living in New York. And so he invited me to come out, she invited my wife to come out, and we just happened to be in the same place at the same time. I know we talked about this a little bit earlier as well, but like, but like that was like the genesis of it. And my wife's like, I read about you guys like in history books about this like diaspora of Ukrainians.

unknown 1:01:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:59

And it was funny because she's from Ukraine, but she grew up in like in like the southeast part of Ukraine, so like Russian as a first language and like Ukrainian as a second, whereas the part of Ukraine my family is from is like Ukrainian first, but it was also a place where people didn't even speak Russian because it wasn't part of the Soviet Union until after the war.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:18

So everybody spoke Ukrainian only, right? So like Russian speakers were considered Russians, which is very different than contemporary Ukraine today, where everyone can speak Russian on some level. But as you go further east in the country, it just becomes more Russified just based on history and Stalin. Yeah, yeah, and um, and things. Anyway, so we met like that night, and then it was it was kind of funny because like she kept calling me Andrew, and I'm like, oh, that's weird. You shouldn't call me Andrew. Like, you have to call me by my Ukrainian name, which is like Andri, which is like a very simple thing, right? Like, I'm like, you just call me by that because it's really weird when you call me Andrew because you're from Ukraine, and like it's just because I grew up like everyone just called me by my Ukrainian name growing up. So Okay. So I mean, like, that's the the the origin story of of the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

So I mean that wow, one of my questions was going to be around like community and and your cultural and ethnic background, like informing your community, but it I mean it entirely informed your community.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

It entirely informed my my upbringing. It was like like uh me being Ukrainian American was that was my identity.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

You know, like American, like we're extremely patriotic Americans, but like we kind of have this like other sort of part of our heart that like sits with this other country. And frankly, it was a country I hadn't had never been to until 2012.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:37

And just like this place, you know, that you were family left.

unknown 1:03:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:42

And like you've never been to it. Like my parents hadn't gone either until they were older. Like they were like in their 60s when they went for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

And so it's just like a weird, it's like a weird, intangible thing, but that's like extremely important to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Yeah. Talk a little bit about what that felt like when you went there, because it's what's interesting is I've talked to a couple of other people, and I'm actually about to talk to somebody else for the podcast who has um an identity deeply rooted in culture. And he's talked about, you know, visiting, you know, in France versus, you know, being in the United States and that mix of like, yeah, you're never French when you're in France, you're never American, you know, fully American, like when you're here. I doubt that you have that exactly because you are American, you've grew up here. But what does that feel like having visited Ukraine?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

It's it's weird because if we were there for, and it was like my wife and I were dating like six months at that point, and like I had already made plans to go, but she's like, Oh, I'll go too. And like she had friends that live in Kiev, and like, and so she wanted to see the. So she's like, I'll go too. I'm like, cool. But we were all over the country. Like the first place I went to, I met up with friends in Livyiv, which is like a western city, which is like very it's much more European feeling than as you go further east into the country where it's like much more like Soviet feeling.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:02

In a way, like just to like really simplify the analogy for you. Sure. But it was a weird feeling because like I speak Ukrainian fluently, but people when they first meet me, they're like, Oh, you're not from here, right? And so they would try to speak English to me or something, right? And they're like, Oh, you're not from here, right? Like it's very obvious you're not from here. So before I've said a word to them, right? So it's like you're not you're not them, right? It's like my family left in 1949, right? Well, like, but they were already in Germany for a couple of years, and so like they left in like 1943, basically, I think, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:36

And so that's a long time. Like that country went through Ukraine, went through a lot, like from 1943 to even to today, but like even like at that moment, 2012. You're like, it went through a lot. Like it's like a big metamorphosis. Like the language changed, and like my Ukrainian is like stuck in the 1940s. Like my wife like laughs, she's like, You're Ukrainians, like she goes, I understand you perfectly, but like your Ukrainian's really weird. You know, she's like, it's like old sounding and you sound like you're from like a village and like you like use a lot of Polish words and like you know, it's you know, it's yeah, it's just like it's really different.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

You know, I would love to understand how does that like how does how is old sounding, what could you equate that to?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:17

Well, like watch watch a sh like watch an American show from like the 1940s or something. Okay, okay. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

It's so like even just language structure, words that you're using.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:27

Yeah. Got it, got it. Call everybody dames, you know, I don't know, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's but it's weird, but like even the word we use for soccer, it's like contemporary Ukraine, they're like football, like that's what they call it, right? That's the Ukrainian word for soccer, is football, which is football, right? And we use the word to literally translate it, be like kicking the ball. Or like a ball that's kicked. Like, you know, it's like, well, it's like that's absurd. Like, what are you even talking about? Even like we had a nanny, and she was from Ukraine, but she'd been living in the US for a few years, and like I said, she smokes cigarettes sometimes, and like I said the word I knew for cigarettes. She's like laughed in my face, right? And she's like, You sound like my grandmother.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Oh, that's hilarious, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:14

And she's like, and I was like, is that not the word? She's like, no. I'm like, what's the word for cigarette? She's like, cigarette. And it's like, I have this like oldie time 1940 word, old like 1940s word for cigarette. And it's just something that we crack up about because like because that like the language is stuck in time because like it didn't evolve with Ukraine, because it was like the 1940s or whatever, like the Soviet Union was there, the language got a little Russified versus like ours, just like stood still, like it didn't evolve. And if anything, it like got peppered in with like some English words, you know, a little bit more, but it's like it's like a different language almost.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

But that actually also makes a lot of sense when you put it in in terms like that, because when you have a bunch of people who leave one place and come to another, they can only bring what they know, and they're not actually progressing beyond that in that space anymore. Yeah, I mean, it's evolved to totally make sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:09

So, like another funny story is we were in Kiev, which is like at that time was like a Russian first city, like from a language perspective. Okay. And, you know, a lot of but like it's also like a place where someone could say something in Ukrainian, someone will respond back in Russian, and then in Ukrainian, right? You could have the conversation because most people were bilingual, but like I was not, and I am not, or like I'm a Ukrainian speaker only.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:32

And so like we'd be in a restaurant, and like I said, my wife and I were just dating for a few months, and like I would order food in Ukrainian. The server would respond back to me in Russian. I would turn to my wife, she would she would tell me in English what the server said to me, and I would respond back in Ukrainian. Oh my gosh. And the person would be like, who the fuck is this guy? Like, who's this guy? Like, he's like a westerner. Like he's like, he's not from here. Right. Maybe he's from Poland. He looks like me, because he's like this guy from Poland or somewhere from like Western Europe or like North America, is like speaks Ukrainian fluently, yeah, doesn't understand Russian. She, who speaks Russian and Ukrainian, just spoke to him in English. In English. It's just like it's really funny. Like my uh my father-in-law, he's been living in Poland for like 35 years. Okay. My wife speaks Polish fluently as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

I was gonna say, just hit pause, just tell us how many languages she speaks because she's five fluently.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:32

Five fluently, yeah. Okay, five fluently, and like if you pushed her, it would be six, I think. So like it's like English, Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, and Spanish fluently.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

Which also one of these things is not like the other.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:46

No one of these things is not like the other, but she speaks Spanish. And so my father-in-law lives has been living in Poland for 35 years. His partner, she is Polish, doesn't speak English, doesn't speak Ukrainian, doesn't speak Russian. So we would have been at dinner, and my wife and I speak English to each other typically. I speak Ukrainian to my father-in-law, my father-in-law speaks Russian to my wife. My all the three of them are speaking Polish. I understand enough Polish to get by.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

Like where like I I can I figure out what people are, I figure out like general conversation. Sure. And it's like there's four languages going at this table, and like everyone is just kind of going, like, everyone's fine. Like everyone's kind of working through the conversation. Like one time a waiter came up to us. Oh, and we were in Paris with them. And so I was ordering in French because I speak like conversational French. And like the waiter's like, Where are you people from? Like, where are you from? Like, because like I just hear distinctly four languages being spoken, yeah, and you're speaking to me in French. Where the hell are you guys from?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:54

And we're like, oh, well, we live in New York, she's from Ukraine, they're from Poland. I'm American, I'm just from Jersey. I speak, but I speak Ukrainian also. Uh, I also lived in Montreal for a little bit, so I picked up French, and here we are, right? And so Wow, mind blowing. Very funny. The poor weight staff. Yeah, he's like, We well, uh I hear, I distinctly hear all these languages being spoken. Like, what is happening at this table?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:22

But like culturally, like the the question I think at the beginning of this was like culturally, yeah. Like I'm still like a patriotic Ukrainian, you know, you know, in a weird way. So like that experience is like when I was in Livy, which is like a Ukrainian first city, it's like a patriotic city. It's you're like, oh, my whole life makes sense. But like I think about it, especially since like the war started in 2022. You know, I'm in New Jersey, like just because of like my grandparents just made decisions to take off.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:54

Right. And like a lot of people didn't, right? And so like I could be a guy in a war right now, very easily. Yeah. Like really, really easily. And like that's not lost on me. It's like like an accident of history, is why I'm in New Jersey. That's right. Right. And so, like, while America is like, I'm very American, like it defines me certainly as a person, like that's not lost on me at all that I could be there.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:17

Right. And so it's it's a weird place to be because I'm not Ukrainian. I didn't grow up in the country.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:26

But could have.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:29

You know, like could have. Maybe not this version of me because I don't think my parents would have met, but like, you know, but some version of me.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

For sure, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

In a parallel universe.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:38

In a parallel universe.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

Yeah. How does it inform your worldview outside of just identity and feeling very much like you are also a patriotic Ukrainian? Just what are some of the things that like when I think about cultural, you hate to like call them cliches, but generalities, right? So when I think about different cultural things, like I think about the fact that, you know, I have Italian heritage, I have um Ecuadorian heritage, like all the all of these things. And they each have their own little unique nuances. Does it inform your work ethic, how you view the world, how you see people? You know, what is what is that like? How does that help inform those things?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:21

The the sort of Ukrainian diaspora that I grew up in is really interesting because the people that came over at that time and like is like a lot of people are pretty successful, educated families who built this kind of culture in these, you know, foreign countries that they raised their families in and demanded excellence out of them and made them be good students. And so, like, that's the world that I still occupy. And so, like people with generally good values, good work ethic, like a sense of purpose about this other culture that they're a part of, right? And they want their families to grow up in it. And like, that's what we're doing with our daughter as well, like entrenching her in these organizations I was a part of, in this culture I was a part of. Not because like I need her to speak Ukrainian so well that like she sounds like she's from Ukraine, like that's not the goal of it. I was like, I was like, I just want you to know like where you come from, yeah, right. And I need you to know a little bit about that, and like that you're not just like a kid from Weehawk in New Jersey, like there's more to you besides that, but I also want her to have access to the families that take up that space, right? Right. I was like, I was like, I want these to be your friends, yeah, because or I want you to like be friends with as many of these people as you can. That makes sense, because like these are generally good families. There's a big community of people. So like I generally I want you to have access to these people.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:54

Because I think as a parent, who your kids hang out with influences a lot about how your kid turns out. It for sure can.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:04

And it's like and even like dumb shit, like, you know, there's a camp that you go to where you're like in the woods for three weeks. You know, like go be in the woods, go build a fort, like go like not shower for a few days, like go do this. You know, it's like live, like go get out there and don't be near a phone and I want you in the woods for three weeks. See you at the end of July.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

Yeah. You know, I love that. And like there because I think that there are a couple of different heritages that really focus on stuff like that. I know I have friends who all went to summer camp. Like it's not an experience that I had growing up. And so I am fascinated by it because I really feel like there's something to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:44

Yeah. And what's what's interesting too, over the last four years since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, a lot of a lot more people from Ukraine have arrived and like woven their way into this diaspora, like that I've been a part of. Yeah. Right. And so where when I grew up, like everybody that I grew up with was born in the US. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:08

Like born in the US or in Canada, or like, you know, not in Ukraine, but like now there's like all these like Ukrainian-born kids who are like seven, eight, like whatever age, and they're like weaving their way into this culture too. And they are like embracing the shit out of it. Really? They're like, you're like, these are my people. Look, like that's so great that like you guys do this, like we want to be part of it too. And it's like this big influx of people have shown up and like are becoming a part of it too. Which and they're all Western Ukrainians, right? It's like kind of like from that part of the world where like that culture exists, that like patriotism and not that patriotism doesn't exist in other parts of it, but it's just it's just different.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

It's like a different yeah, it's like where your family came from.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:46

Yeah, it's where your family came from. And so like there's like a big connection like to Western Ukraine. Yeah. So it's interesting is like my my wife is from Ukraine. She lived there until she was 21, and she's a patriotic Ukrainian, obviously, but like she didn't grow up doing the stuff I did. And so it's like she gets it, right? She's like, she's like, I get it. This is cool, this is great. Like, I want our daughter to be a part of this, but she's like, she doesn't have that emotional connection to it like I do. It's not like she's from Ukraine, like she doesn't. I don't know, it's like it's like a different thing. It's like my family left because they had to. Right. My wife left because she wanted to. Right. It's like a really different reason of being.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:26

Yeah. I was actually gonna ask, like, because I because it's interesting too, just even thinking about, you know, the things that you want for your daughter being raised with the same organizations and in the same communities, and and some of the things that your family and other families who came over at the same time brought with them, that focus on education and hard work and you know, demanding excellence and things like that. How does your wife view those things being that she came here because she wanted to, not because she had to? Like, do we think that there's a difference in how she views some of those same things because of the difference in in how she came here?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:10

I think um my wife is she's an exceptionally hard worker. Yeah. She kind of came here with sort of not like nothing, I guess, in in a manner of speaking.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:20

But she's like worked her tail off and she started a business, and it's a really successful real estate business that she runs.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:25

In New York. What's like interesting is like the world I grew up in, everybody, there's like doctors, lawyers, engineers. Those are kind of like the professions like like you're almost like forced to go into. That might be why I was like, my mom coaxed me into being a mechanical engineering. Mechanical engineering. Um, and so, you know, I think the the people that came later, it's just like, I don't know, I think it was like a different mentality. Growing up in the Soviet Union, like you fought for everything you had. You know, it's like there was a lot less like trustworthiness. You know, you had to like kick and scream to kind of get what you needed. And so, like my wife's very different than me. Like, I grew up in the suburbs of New Jersey in like a upper middle class town where like there were people and they supported you, and like people were generally good and like trying to do the right thing. And like her mentality is like, nobody is here to help you, right? Like, nobody is gonna help you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:23

And so as we've evolved, like we're we've been right, and like we've both been right, and we've both been wrong about that those like worldviews. Like, she's like a very much like a guilty till proven innocent, and like I'm an innocent until proven guilty kind of person. Yeah. And so it it's really interesting because like culturally, like we're different in that way, right? Where she's like can spot a scam from a mile away. Yeah, you know, I mean, she has like a street smartness to her that like, and that's a naive idiot, but like sure, she can like see the scam or like how someone is trying to manipulate, like really quickly. And I'm like, oh, I thought that person was really nice, right? She's like, you know, but it's like no, it's like here's what they're trying to do, right? And so it's like a really different mentality. So she's like a she's like a harder person than me in like her like toughness. Yeah, I'm like and she's discerning, yeah, and totally. And and you know, I'm a person if like if you lost like if someone like made you pay $15 more than you should have, and I'm like, oh, what are you gonna do? You know, like I'm not gonna go like back there for $15, you know. I'm just like, oh I'm getting the $15 back. Yeah, you know, and like and I'll probably get $30. But what's interesting too is like from like a raising kids' perspective, like I'm the much tougher person.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:47

Really?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:48

Much tougher.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:49

Really?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:50

Much based on everything that you just talked about, I would never have guessed that ever.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:55

She's like a different person around the kid. Like, she's like life tough, you know, like in the real world tough. And I'm I'm not like not that I'm not tough, but like I'm different, you know, like and and so she's in real estate too, where you know, like you've been in the corporate world, you know, you've dealt with people who aren't great at their job, but you've never dealt with like idiots, right? Like truly stupid, like not good people in the corporate world. Like it doesn't happen often, right? Very rarely. My wife in real estate deals with idiots all the time. All the time. Right. And so like, so she's like, and plus like her cultural upbringing makes her like just like she's tough. Like she's like very assertive and I'm probably less assertive professionally than she is, and in the real world, and like I'm much more assertive with our daughter, and not like from a strictness standpoint, but I'm like consistent, I'm like fair, I'm like shaping her behaviors and like making sure like she's doing the right things and that we're like getting stuff done and like all this stuff. And like my wife's just like a little more passive with her, and it's just like a real like flip in that in that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

That is really interesting. Although I will say, as you're talking through it, once again, if we go all the way back full circle from the beginning, you're a framework guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:11

Kid Kid Framework.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:12

Kid Framework. You have created a model for the kid framework.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

I love it. I love it. Before we wrap, I do kind of want to bring it back full circle a little bit and talk about do you feel like your cultural heritage or identity has sort of helped inform some of what your work ethic is? If you look back holistically on your career and that feeling of just give me the framework and I will do all the rest of this stuff, do you feel like some of that work ethic comes from your Ukrainian community?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:48

Maybe, but like I just think I'm wired that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

You're just wired that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:51

Potentially, yeah, I think so. Like I'm sure like there's elements of it that I'm sure are like peppered in, like that helps me with work ethic, but I think I'm just wired that way. Because there's people who I know who like need specific, you know, or aren't framework people, they're just like go and do stuff people and yeah. No, I don't know. I don't think so. It's a good question. It's a fair question. I don't know if that's like correct or not. And I like I don't want to like pontificate.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:16

No, no, no. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:18

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:18

No, I'm always curious about things like that. And especially because as you're describing your wife, it's like, okay, so that toughness though, that sort of street smart, savvy, not trusting people, that works for the industry she's in, right? And so 100%, yeah. So there's that level of you know, how she grew up and sort of that part of her cultural identity sort of fits as you're talking through like the things that she does professionally. So kind of why I asked the question. I'm always curious about of how how your upbringer culture informs things like that. So I know, like, for example, my grandfather, born and raised in Ecuador, and he was very driven, but he was also raised in his culture where education was super important and um, which was a through line for him, like in how he spoke to his kids and his grandkids and whatever, everything was through the lens of you have to be educated. So I think about things like that sometimes too, for people who don't come from some of those same cultures, like what are the things that matter to them and how does that inform like how they move through the world?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:27

So yeah, that's fair. Like I always tell I tell my daughter today, like she's five and a half. So, like how I talk about education, I was like, people who do the best in school have the funnest jobs when they're older and they can do whatever they want. Right. And so she's like, okay. I was like, just want to like frame it that way. Yeah. I think like in terms of like the worldview though, it's like coming from like a Ukrainian background, it's like you like it kills me sometimes to see the way Ukraine has sort of evolved as a country, like in the grips of this like Soviet menace, plus like this like Russian need to like sink its claws into it all the time. Because like I've spent a decent amount of time in Poland, and you're like, you go through Poland and Polish and Ukrainian cultures are like especially like Western Ukrainian and Polish cultures are really similar, just based on like the over like the sort of Venn diagram of like borders and things like that. And you're like, man, this is what Ukraine should be like. Ukraine should be like this. Like you go to these like cities like Krakow or like you're like this should be Ukraine. It's like such a beautiful city, like these safe places, they're like vibrant economically too. They're like really vibrant cities, and you're like, man, Ukraine should be like this. Yeah. Right. And so, like, my worldview is like whatever promotes what Poland is like today, is like things I I'm all like generally for. Market economies, smart people doing smart people things, let people go do stuff and let people build and like think of ideas. Like, and so like I I get frustrated like when I see like people with terrible ideas. Yeah, you know, like what whatever side of the political spectrum they're on. Sure. I like get in the way of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:16

So sure. That was polite. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:18

Yeah, I like it's not a it's not a conversation for Taver.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:21

No, no, no, it's not. Awesome. So one thing that I like to do at my kitchen table is talk three good things about your week rolling seven days. I do it at home with my family, uh, just as a way to talk about, you know, things that are good, things that we're grateful for, especially because it's too easy to get bogged down with the negative. So would love to hear three good things about your week.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:44

So one good thing is like I've been really inspired. I know I talked about the real estate thing in some in some depth on the something that I've focused on, but I think I mentioned earlier on the call where I've been getting hit with headhunters for like really cool AI focused sales roles. And like I've I've had two amazing interviews over the past week that are focused on that. And like I felt like really good, especially coming out of what I've been doing the last four months, of like building this like strategy and like figuring out how to execute it and like building these sales pipelines. Like I'm being asked potentially to go do that again. Yeah, but like in the context of these like powerful AI tools that do really, really cool things. Like that has fully inspired me this week.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:27

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:28

Uh the other thing is my daughter plays now, plays soccer for the Ukrainian club team that I played soccer for for my whole life. So cool. She's she's not good, she's very athletic. But like, you know, not not that she's not good, the team is not good. They're a bunch of five year olds playing against like six and seven year olds in like little tournaments, and they're getting just smoked.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

Annihilated.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:51

And so, yeah. But but it's like the same club team I grew up playing for that I played. I mean, I played for the team until I was like 45.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:00

And like she's doing it now, so like it's like this like weird nostalgia thing where like she's sort of in the world that I occupied.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:09

And then the third thing is Karen, I don't have an amazing third thing. That's okay. Those are two very, very good things. You know what? Let's just let's just call it what it is. The fact that we did this podcast finally, let's call that the third good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:27

We can call it the third good thing. Awesome. That's awesome. I will say it is very cool as a person who, I mean, obviously you're in a much different spot than I am. You have a five and a half year old. My kids are all adults. They're grown up. But there is something to be said for that nostalgia thing. And it's gonna stick with you. I'm I'm calling it now. It's gonna stick with you through her whole life. You're gonna have these moments where you're like looking at them and then looking back on a different time. And the it's almost like things don't change as much as we all think they change in a way, right? There is just something really interesting about that feeling. It's almost surreal of like watching your kids do some of the same things that either you know you did when they were young or that you did growing up or whatever. Yeah, it's it'll stick with you. You're gonna have so many of those moments.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:17

I love it. It's like, you know, we have a nanny that lives with us, and it's like, you're like, oh, like who's taking Mila to tennis? And I'm like, I'm taking Mila to tennis. I want to watch my kid play tennis. You know, like I want to watch her go do this because like it's so fun watching your kid go do stuff and like decent at it and enjoy it. And like, you know, she like just started ice skating recently, and she just started playing piano, and I'm like, you just like watch this kid do these things, and you're like, you're probably maybe slightly above average, but like in the grand scheme of things, but like I love watching you do this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:55

Yeah, like I love it. Yeah, also because it doesn't matter if she's above average or average or if she absolutely sucks, it's the experience of it all, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:02

And I don't I don't I don't mean to like I'm not putting her on a scale, but like I don't I don't want like like a lot of parents think their kids are just like so amazing and like so perfect. I'm like my kid's like unique because she's she's the only one of her, but she's not special, like she has to like prove she's special in the in in life, but like watching her do stuff, like I'm like, that's so awesome. Yeah, yeah, so awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:27

Very cool. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it so so much. Plus, it's like kind of we haven't caught up like this in forever.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:36

So this felt we're gonna be. We just did five years of catching up two hours.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:41

We did, we did. Awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:44

Thank thank you for inviting me. Of course. That means you think I'm like somewhat interesting, and that people will click to listen to what I have to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:53

I do think that. I do think that.