At My Kitchen Table
Welcome to At My Kitchen Table, a conversational, interview-y podcast where I have a good yap with a guest!
When I was growing up, the kitchen table was the conversation center in a lot of homes. At my grandparents' house, friends and family alike were welcomed with connection as much as with drinks and food. In my parents' house, that tradition continued as my siblings and I would post up and chat with my mom as she cooked or baked or tried to read a book (with much exasperation as we refused to shut up). I found cozy similarity at my friends' homes with their parents, too.
Keeping with tradition, I create a space for everyone who visits my table, where we get to share a little bit of our journeys together - roses, thorns, and stems.
Interested in recording your story with me? Email me at atmykitchentablepod@gmail.com!
At My Kitchen Table
Guest: Olivia Zortman
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Welcome to Wednesday, Teabags! Today, I’m joined at my kitchen table by Olivia Zortman, who dives into what it's like for her to work through reconciling her religion with her identity. Growing up as a queer kid in an inclusive Christian denomination, only to have her own church separate because it believes homosexuality to be a sin impacted both family relationships and the community she'd had since birth.
Olivia also talks about being a self-proclaimed weird kid, parallel play, her love of musicals, how everything matters more when you’re a teenager, and that you can’t spell Melica without Melia.
Get cozy!
Intro riff by Dale Lytle (concert husband).
All content edited (I use that term very loosely) by Karen Shaak.
I hate teabags. I have my kitchen table that doesn't have a specific small business about like this week. This would be a general reminder to support your local small businesses whenever you can. This is a great way to get art and food and books and candles and oils and clothing and plants and so much more that is handmade. No two items or badges or designs are the same because they're not mass produced. Someone put their time and care into something amazing that awaits you in a small shop near you. Go explore and find your amazing. Welcome to Wednesday Teabags. Today I'm joined at my kitchen table by Olivia Zortman, freshly graduated from Elizabethtown College with her degree in psychology and starting her master's work this fall. Olivia gets real with me about navigating her faith while living her truth as she discusses the challenges of reconciling her religion with her identity. Olivia also talks about being a self-proclaimed weird kid, parallel play, how everything matters more when you're a teenager, and how you can't spell melica without belief. Get cozy.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank God, not this summer. So this is my last summer off technically, because when I start grad school, we're going to be taking summer classes and starting up the internship too. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Because you're you just like your senior year, like you just finished and you're going into yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I did an accelerated program. So I graduated a year early. Yep. Now I'm diving straight into my master's program and counseling. Yeah. So cool. Very cool. I'm going to be mourning my summers for the rest of my life. Since right after that, you know, you get a job. Yes. You're still working. Even though I still work, I don't really know why. I'm like, oh man, I'm never gonna have a summer again. Like, I know still work anyways full time. But like it just it feels different when you're in school.
SPEAKER_01It does because it is the break from school. So even though you're working, it's it's different. Once you're adulting properly, you're technically working like all the time. And so your break is like vacation.
SPEAKER_00Right? The summer, like the seasons don't even matter all that much. Like summer isn't this thing to get hyped about anymore. It's just like a hot weather and you know, occasionally vacations and yeah, what a depressing outlook.
SPEAKER_01I know. Let's stop talking about depressing things and get into other things that are probably also depressing.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm so happy that you joined me today. I'm very excited to talk to you, to dive in and chat about how you're navigating living your faith and living your truth, right? And one of the things that intrigues me about this is as a person who grew up with religion but has totally moved away from it, I just don't talk a lot about it. And so this actually kind of gives me the opportunity to dig in and like hear perspectives on this as well. So I'm super excited for that. But also I'm just very thankful because you're sharing something that's pretty personal and I just really appreciate that. So thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate you having me. Religion is one of my favorite topics. Yeah, I love talking about it with friends and family. I mean, I did my whole senior research project on that too. Wow. To say it's not one of my favorite things and I don't know, be an understatement. Yeah. Yeah. So I am so excited because I think specifically my experience would be very helpful for other people to navigate their own lives too. So I'm really, I'm glad you're giving me a platform to share my voice on this perspective. Um, that's awesome. I've never done this before, so it's gonna be it's gonna be really cool.
SPEAKER_01So, for the sake of the teabags, I would love it if you would um introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_00Okay, hey teabags. Um, my name is Olivia Zortman. I have just graduated from Elizabethtown College with a psychology degree. Um, I'm 21 years old, so I graduated early. Super awesome, very proud of myself. I'm not arrogant, I promise teabags. That's okay. You're allowed to be proud of yourself. I'm going into my Masters of Counseling psychology program. I initially was really excited to work with kids and I was going to do a child and adolescence track, but the more I'm reading about the concepts of therapies, I'm thinking of switching maybe towards adults and really um, yeah. Uh, I was just reading this counseling book that I was just like, wow, these are the kinds of conversations I wouldn't be able to always have with children because we're just trying to navigate experiencing our feelings, regulating, teaching like those coping skills, and some of those conversations wouldn't be developmentally appropriate. And I think I'd really like to have like deep chats with people, but that's what internship is for, and the next two years will be practicals, internships. So uh plenty of time to figure that what path I want to take, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_01Totally, and I also think too, like nothing is permanent, right? So you could end up going down a path and do that path for a number of years and then still decide that you want to change it up and do something different. I actually had a a guest on about a month, month and a half ago, who started her path in sociology and kept just amassing experiences and information in school and ultimately ended up getting a master's degree in clinical therapy as well. So she's she's like this powerhouse of all of this amassed information. And so you have the opportunity to do the same.
SPEAKER_00And honestly, I think that's kind of what life is. Everyone is a collection of experiences that shape them who they are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think it's incredible that we are not always stuck in one space and that we have the opportunity, at least where we are in this place and time geographically, we're in America, we have those those choices to be. I know that's not always the case for everyone.
SPEAKER_01That's true.
SPEAKER_00But we are very fortunate that we do have that. We are fortunate, I suppose, that our experiences allow us to choose our own path.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All right. So let's actually talk about some of your earlier experiences. Where are you from? This is my this was my absolute favorite when I found this out upon meeting you.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So I'm from York PA. Represent specifically from Central York, very close to where I don't know, downtown is, Central York School Districts, where I grew up. I'm very familiar with the the area, the surrounding areas. I love York County, kind of. But it's where I grew up and uh it's where I've lived for the past 21 years of my life.
SPEAKER_01So and what are like, do you have siblings and what's your birth order?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I have a younger brother. Um, he is 18, he's going to be turning 19. Okay. He just graduated high school, so he's trying to figure out his life post-graduation and what it's what he wants to do. But he was like my best friend, he's been my best friend growing up. We've always been super close, and we used to do everything together all the time. And now we still pretty much do everything together, just like we call it parallel play. You know how like really young kids when they play together, like they're not really interacting and doing the same thing, they're just doing things in the same space. We'll be like, Do you just want to go like parallel play right now? And like, we'll sit in the same space and he'll like play a game and I'll read a book. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I kind of love that. I love that that's even you know what you call it too. That's pretty fun.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm a psych major, so I know.
SPEAKER_01Gotta use all the terminology, all the terms. Nice.
SPEAKER_00He's my only sibling. Okay. So that's him. And I have my mom and my dad, and they're adorable. They've been together since middle school. They're middle school sweethearts. Wow. Yep, and they've been together ever since. They they broke up one time for like a couple of weeks in high school. Yep. Because my dad was like, I'm too cool for you. Practically begged my mom to get back together. So that feels like it tracks. I I mean, like, that's developmentally appropriate. Sure. And then they just fell deeper in love and they've been they've been together ever since.
SPEAKER_01Like that's awesome. So I came to know you through our mutual connection, is my lovely, wonderful niece, who is your friend at Elizabethtown College, and you guys do a cappella group together. Yes, we do. And so it was really fun when I found out that you were from York because we have some parallels there as well. Not that I spent a ton of time there, but I spent some pretty formative time there between eighth grade and twelfth grade. So I still have connections to that area as well. So yeah, I just thought that that was really kind of some interesting synergy. So I wanna let's just dive in. Let's just start getting into like the the meaty stuff.
SPEAKER_00I'm for it.
SPEAKER_01Can you share a little bit about what the importance of your faith is to you? So I don't want to get into like church stuff yet. I we're gonna get into that, you know, next, but just as far as like what is it that you value about your faith?
SPEAKER_00I think faith has a strong role in forming community and spiritual wellness. I love spiritual health, I love connections and relationships. I think those are all important for our well-being. And as someone who loves mental health and well-being, I'm always focused on that. And I think religion and faith hold really strong spiritual aspects that allow people to sort of navigate a world that might be unfamiliar and help them make sense of their challenges and struggles, helps them move forward, find peace, find joy, and especially find community. Church and faith are big sources of community. You find people who see you sometimes in your lowest of your lows and are always with you, and you're bound together by shared values and beliefs, and you sort of create this this tight-knit group that sustains throughout the years. Even growing up, the concept of a church, that how my family defined church wasn't there were two different things. There was church the building and church the gathering. And so when we my family talked about church, we always called it the gathering of people because that's what it meant to us. And for me, having faith was having that community. But yeah, so I think not only is it and I've seen the impact it has on people's well-beings, but also the the community that it brings.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Okay, and so would you say that it provided a like a foundation or a grounding for you?
SPEAKER_00Oh, a hundred percent. Okay. I I grew up within these church communities. That's where I met some of my best friends growing up, my first ever like real friends as I call them. Since you know, you have friends in elementary school, but you don't really start forming those deep emotional connections with others until you're like pre-pubescent, adolescence, like the preteen stage, you know. And then you start forming those strong friendships, and that church community was one of the first places that I found like those those close friends. So it gave me a strong footing on what that means to have friends, and also like I don't know, just always a place that I was told I could belong in growing up. Like the emphasis was that you'd always have a family here and that you'd always have people who were looking out for you, thinking of you, supporting you if you needed. So yeah, I guess to answer your question, they were always there. Yeah. And it was nice, it was it was great. And of course, that has shifted um over time, and the initial community I had has sort of fallen away. Yeah. Um we'll get into that a little bit more. We'll get into that more. Yeah. But it provided the roots for belonging in like the transitional time in my life when I was developing, and things meant a lot more. Like, I don't know, everything matters when you're a teenager.
SPEAKER_01Everything is so important. With like a with like an intensity, things things matter when you're a teenager.
SPEAKER_00Things matter so strongly at that age. So being in that community was a very formative experience, my life. Awesome.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. You were raised in a Christian household, and you were active in your church, but your whole family was really active in the church. So can you share a little bit about what their different roles were and like and how often were you attending church?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so when I say we were very involved, I mean like multiple family members were figureheads of the church. My grandpa was a pastor of his church, my uncle is a pastor at his church, and my dad founded, was a co-founder of one of these community organizations that does more like local outreach. They provide a community dinner each week to this uh community near my house in York Haven. And that is like their own organization that's called Common Ground, where they basically, I don't know, make food for people and provide like dinner each week and invite people to just eat, and they share like a brief gospel message at the end of the dinner, and people are free to stay, they're free to leave. Whatever they want to do, they're not gonna force anything, but they ultimately like provide a community that's very transient, people don't always stay there, people don't aren't like always having the most secure income sources of food, providing just some sort of relief at least once a week, right? And a source of community as well. So, yes, I say it's like three-pronged in terms of my involvement. There was three different church communities that I was involved in, but mainly we were growing up, I went to my uncle's current church. At the time, he wasn't the pastor, but they were like, I don't know, the head of local outreach, head of communications until my uncle went to theology school and eventually took over for the pastor who retired there. Growing up there, I'd go about I just the typical once a week, every week. I went to the Bible school as a kid. I went to the creation festival.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what that is? I sort of have a vague recollection of it. When I was a kid, it's funny, I so I I think I told you I was raised Catholic, but Catholics are not fun. And so, but in the summertime, my friends who were at the Baptist church used to do these youth group weeks, and then they so they had a couple of different organizations, and they would do like we would get together once a week and we would go like miniature golfing or we would go bowling, or we like we would do all these fun things, and you know, the the price I paid for that was I had to sit and listen to scripture for like you know a half an hour, and then we would go do fun shit, and then that and so that was like well, that's way more fun than anything that was going on at the Catholic Church. So so I kind of vaguely have that's pinging a memory for me, but I don't but please feel free to explain what that is.
SPEAKER_00Creation was like a music festival, a one-week music festival, a bunch of Christian artists. They'd have like you made the smaller bands perform earlier, and then you'd have the bigger names like Skillet, News Boys, all the other ones I don't remember seeing, but I definitely did. That's terrible. But like it was just a whole music festival, but for like youth groups, essentially. Yeah. And we'd I'd go there with the church. It eventually did get shut down, spilling tea and shade on them. They did get shut down because I believe the organ is the organizer, he I don't remember exactly what it was. I think it was like something involving kids that was not cool.
SPEAKER_01I would love to say I'm surprised to hear that, but I'm super not, and that is unfortunately super common. It is also one of the reasons initially that got me totally turned off by religion. But yes, I that's not uncommon.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, it was devastating to find out because creation is like a highlight, and then to find out the guy who was running it the whole time was like, I don't know, molesting kids. Yeah, it was heartbreaking. And as I said, it's not uncommon in the church. Oh, actually, recently I just read in the news California is paying about like $325 million to survivors of like sexual assault from clergy members. Um yeah, so it's not uncommon, and even then, like that is rare, like it is rare that victims will even get compensation for it's true.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, they're not believed, like for somebody to come forward is so rare already. When they do, they're not believed, they're told to be quiet. I mean, there's like that's a whole we could do an entire second podcast episode on that alone. We can we can stay away from that for now. Yeah, yeah. Because once I get no, no, no, it's just that once I get going, not excited, but like passionate about that.
SPEAKER_00Passionate about it. I know. It's hard when uh I don't know, you grow up and you find value in things, and then you find out these people there are people who take advantage of it and lose like people within the systems are supposed to protect and and nurture and guide, and it's it's rough. It's clear, and I totally agree. I think it's a big reason why a lot of people move away from religious organizations because of the long-standing abuse that not only happens but is kept quiet by other people, people who perpetrate that cycle, and just again, as you said, I could go on about it forever because I'm very passionate as well. Yeah, so creation did get shut down. Sorry, back to your original question. Like, as I got older and I became a teenager, my that is when my dad started the community dinner church. So my choices were go to traditional church on like in the mornings, or you could go to the community dinner, help out, cook, serve, clean up, like all that whole thing. And usually I would choose to do that because that is where I met my friends, and we had like this really close group. So honestly, I'd just go and hang out with my friends, do some meal preps, eat some food, listen to like a 10-minute gospel lecture sharing whatever story, whatever they called it, and then like go hang out some more. And I did that for many years of my life, then eventually that whole thing fell apart. But then when I turned 18, like I had choice in a sense that like I didn't have to go anymore. And when I was like 14 or 15, I had some really difficult experiences with religion because of my sexuality. Right. So like the three or four years in between, it was just kind of a chore rather than something fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It got a little bit fraught.
SPEAKER_00It did.
SPEAKER_01Before we get to that, I want to shift gears for a minute because I want to talk about the fact that you mentioned to me when I asked you what kind of kid you were. You called your you called yourself a weird kid, which I love because I too was a weird kid. I feel like a lot of my friends were weird kids. But describe what you mean by weird kids.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I was the kind of kid who just did whatever they wanted to do. And everyone thought I was a little strange and odd for the things I liked and enjoyed. My family, we didn't listen to like the normal kids pop radio. We didn't have like the the fun, normal music taste. Like I'd come into school being like, Do you guys know Phantom of the Opera? Do you guys know Lame is? Like, what first grader knows Lame is? And I'd just like sit there on the bus and I'd just sing it to myself and I'd track like the time it took us to get places by how long the songs passed in my brain. Right. And then I'd go to like I had like one or two close friends, and we just play our own little silly games in the yard while everyone else was doing like tag or playing on the equipment where like dolphins and bunnies take over the world being spies by I don't know, just like those silly little games, and from that, everyone just had the assumption like oh, she's weird, but I was also very smart too. So I had that to my advantage socially. Like I got in the gifted program in third grade, so I was the weird and smart kid, so it was a little more acceptable because I was weird, but I was helping people with their work. So how could they how could they hate me all that much? Right. Obviously, maybe hysterically too. So historically, like everyone associates like the theater kids or the the band kids as like the weird ones. And like that's so fine with me. Like I loved my little group of of weirdos. And we we had a good time just doing what we do. And honestly, it's not I don't think it's that weird. I don't think so either.
SPEAKER_01I mean, when I I think when I was growing up, we mostly referred to ourselves, I would say, as nerdy, more so than weird for those for those things, like for for theater and for choir and for things of that nature. So yeah, I just thought it was really funny that you were like nerdy. Self-described weird kid.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Nerdy is like a generational thing. Like I feel like nerd is more so like your generation. Like my my parents will say, like, oh yeah, like we were nerds. Yeah. But my like in my generation, we don't call people nerds. It I think from like it's weird. I think they mean the same thing, just like we shifted terms. And I love, I love being a weird kid. I don't really care what anyone thought of me. I just did my own thing. I was happy for it. People seem to like me. And it, I don't know, got to be my most authentic self. I mean, of course, you know, you're in high school and middle school, and you're entirely self-conscious and aware of everything that's happening ever. And obviously, it's the worst time to be alive. Yes. And my way of dealing with that was like, oh yeah, I'm totally okay and 100% cool with everything that's going on. But you know, I wasn't really that confident either. Like I had anxiety and all of all of those like issues, like, oh my gosh, actually, like liking myself who I was as a person. Internally, I didn't like myself, but outwardly I did.
SPEAKER_01You did. You presented it as a confident, I don't care. I'm I'm me and I'm I like me.
SPEAKER_00Right. But honestly, I didn't feel that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and it only started recently becoming that. And I feel like I genuinely do like myself now, and I'm happier with myself, but before it was like it was like deep self-loathing disguised by this overconfidence. So yeah. Being like being the weird kid does even even if you pretend it doesn't impact you, like it it does. Of course. You notice how people treat you differently. And I know the teabags won't get to see see my face, bored know what I look like, but I grew up always in a larger body, so you can always tell how people treat you based on that. Pretty privilege is real, yes. And unfortunately, like like pha phobia is real. Honestly, it's probably one of the most normalized ones, too. Gym culture, I could talk about this forever. I know it's gonna be a whole other episode, too. I know, right? Um, no, for real. But like, yeah, you know, just people treat you differently because of your body and they give you less respect in general.
SPEAKER_01So it's just like an extra Do you think that that made it so that though that weird kid, you know, sort of moniker, that mantle that you're wearing, do you feel like that is a is a coping mechanism? Is it a defense mechanism for some of those other things?
SPEAKER_00A thousand percent. One of my favorite songs actually in high school was called Fat Funny Friend by Maddie Zom. And then I love her to death. She's very similar to me in my experiences. Uh, she talks about religion as well. She's an ex-church kid. Yeah, um, she's queer, she was like inhabited a larger body all of her life, she was plus sized, and her song, Fat Funny Friend, was like my anthem for yeah, years, and it was so depressing. And I was like, girl, this is so sad. But like, no one it obviously was a protection. Like, I knew deep down what it was, but it's easier for people to respect you when you're funny than when you're authentic and in a in a bigger body, so yeah, you gotta try harder. And I know it's a coping mechanism, and I know the purpose that it served. Yeah, but it was it was sad that that's what it had to be. It made me funny. Some people are like, Yeah, it made me funny, it made me build character. I now have a personality, but I wish it didn't happen that way, you know.
SPEAKER_01Sure, but you're also you, like you're you know, and you're again going back to what we talked about at the very beginning, like you're a culmination of your experiences, and it's like if I like I I tend to not live my life with regrets because I definitely feel like I wouldn't be who I am if the terrible things that have happened in my life didn't happen, as well as the most amazing things that have happened in my life didn't happen. So yeah, I don't know. I I love I love that you're aware of it at the age you're aware of it too, because not everybody has that. And I was a pretty self-aware kid, and I would say I still probably was not quite as self-aware as maybe you you at least seem to be.
SPEAKER_00Well, I've been in therapy for years. There you go. There you go. A future therapist in training, right? That's our whole our whole shint. Like being self-aware and knowing what makes humans work helps us relate and empathize with other people better too and help them make sense of their experiences. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01And when did you know that you could sing? So I've had the pleasure of actually seeing you perform. This was prior to a summer meeting, so you didn't know that I was in the audience. But yeah, I I got to go see uh Malia perform. Um and as well as some of the other groups at eTown. It was pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_00I'm so glad you came to see us. Like we love, we love support. I'm sure Malia was so happy. Yeah, um, we always say in Melica, that's our a cappella group. We always say you can't spell Melica without Malia. That's your question, but like I don't know if she's ever told you that. Um yeah, we always say you can't spend Melica without Malia because she's the president and we love her, she's amazing, super talented. Yeah, prior to Melica, I have always like I've literally sung my whole life. I feel like I knew I could sing when I was in like elementary school. I sang part of your world, like karaoke, and they were like, We got this little Disney princess voice going on. I was like, Yeah, you're right. And then my dad played Phantom of the Opera for me. Game changer, changed the whole trajectory of my life. Yeah. And at seven years old, I was trying to hit all those notes. Impossible, totally bad idea. It was terrible, but like honestly, my confidence was high, and I kept doing it anyways. And I yeah, I think I always thought I could sing, and I did like choir growing up, I did theater growing up. Um, I'm an a cappella, I wasn't a cappella, I graduated now, but like I did a cappella, it's something I enjoy too. I think I'm good at it, and it's it's a nice source of community as well.
SPEAKER_01Well, that and that's actually kind of what I was gonna say, too, is that you know, all the things that you talked about with respect to your faith community, those things exist for so many other people in other areas, and theater is such a strong community.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Thousand percent. So the weirdest, closest relationships I've ever had have been through theater. Yeah. Melica at Utown. I'm a I'm a commuter student. So it's already was a challenge to make friends because I was just showing up to class and then kind of leaving because I don't know, I I don't live there, I don't have a dorm, I didn't have a roommate, I didn't make friends in the sense like I could go out with them because I had to go home. I lived 40 minutes away and I'd be out late otherwise. But Melica gave me a a chance to do something I love and meet some of my like closest friends. So yeah. Shout out to that. Good community. Um getting me involved because I love I loved making connections and it was like already exponentially harder just because of the situation I was in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. You're just not in those bonding experiences. You're you're not having those moments, you're in class, and that's why you're there, and that's important, but there's like an entire collegiate experience that resident students are having that are completely different than what your experience is going to be.
SPEAKER_00100%. And I'm forever grateful that Melika was like, yeah, we don't care that you live 40 minutes away. Like, jo join our group. And I don't know, I think since then I was able to meet so many amazing people and get experiences that I didn't have otherwise. Yeah. Of the opportunities like my hobbies and passion brought me to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay. So let's shift back a little bit and let's talk about well, let's start with how old were you when you came out?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I was four, fifteen.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I believe.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I was 15 years old. I we first came out to my best friend at the time. I was like, hey dog, I think I'm bisexual over a text message. And then literally the next day, I was like, No, I'm just kidding. Actually, I'm a lesbian. Like, I'm not even kidding. I was bisexual for a day, and then I was like, no, wait, I don't like men at all. Like the question was never really, do I like women rather than do I still like men? Gotcha. And I did after my day of uh bargaining, I decided I did not.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00But it's a choice, but it's not a choice, it's something that happens and but you still have to examine it, right? Like I think Yeah, it's something you realize, it's something I had to recognize in myself rather than like choose. Something I recognized was always there. I was like, you know, come to think of it, I don't think I do like men. And so I was a lesbian to my friend first, um, some of my closest friends, and they were all very accepting. And then we went to a pride parade that year in York, which it wasn't that great, granted, because it is York and there wasn't anything big, it's like fun, enjoyable. It was like just a walk around our local park, and they had like little vendors, and it was still cute that it happened for York, but it wasn't something like Philly. I went to Philly this year, and I was like, oh my gosh, I was just so overwhelmed by yeah, these people that was a massive difference, yeah. It was insane. Like, I bought a lesbian flag at the Philly Pride Parade because York they literally didn't have them, they had every single Pride flag but the lesbian pride flag. I was like, are we serious? Wow, it was ridiculous. I finally have one now, but yeah, um, this is related to the story because at that pride parade, my friend and I went together. She took a picture of it and posted it on like social media specific Facebook at that time. Um, and she had like my whole family on Facebook.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, oh uh oh, I didn't do that yet. And so like my dad saw it, and we had this conversation about like I don't know, I had to come out to him. I was like, Yeah, dad, I'm a lesbian, I'm gay, like this is this is who I am. And that conversation was really hard. Um, it was not our crowning moment. Um, he said some things that hurt and were painful, for example, like you're an abomination before the Lord, you know, but it was still very painful, and it resonated with me. And since then, like we have come a long way in understanding, and I'm I'll talk about that more. But that initial conversation was really rough to have. It was like the dining room table. I know you said the kitchen, the kitchen table, that's the name of your podcast. Yeah, um, but it was like at our our kitchen table, basically. Yeah, it's where you do hard things, do hard things, and we're having this conversation in the dark, and I just remember him like looking so so sad and yeah, disappointed and hurt, and trying to navigate his own feelings with it, and being 15, I didn't really care about his own feelings on it, and I and that's fair though, right?
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's real. You're at a developmental age where you're very self-focused.
SPEAKER_00And honestly, how he responded, like I didn't appreciate or understand, not that I appreciated his response at all, but really understand the nuance within it. And I just remember it, it hurting. Sure.
SPEAKER_01Well, and also because you just talked about this was your foundation. The church was your foundation, your faith was your foundation. And to be told, not I'm disappointed in you, though maybe that also can't like I don't know what else he said, but I'm just saying, like, as the thing that sticks with you, it's not I'm disappointed in you, it's not you're not lovable, or I love you less, or the first thing is that you're an abomination before the Lord, and that's been your that's like your your whole community space, right?
SPEAKER_00100% it sort of just put up the first wall of like my faith and experience. It's like no who you are, who you were born to be and made was wrong. Yeah, you are wrong, right? That statement alone. It's like, and not only are you considered wrong to me and your family and the church, but you are wrong before God. God, yeah, judges like your soul, your well-being, like everything about you as a person, which is entirely juxtaposing to the idea that we are all created in God's image. So it's it was hard to wrap your your head around at 15 when you're told that you are wrong because of loving someone.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's also fly it flies in the face because it's your parent, and so it flies in the face of everything that you think you know at the age of 15 about unconditional love.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, 100%. And my journal entries from that time of my life have definitely talked about why love feels conditional and what it was supposed to be like I was told I was loved unconditionally and not won by my parents, true, but we also said that about God as well, right? A belief system in my family that who I was was unconditionally loved, and now that was being changed to something that because oops, except this condition, but but not but not this part, exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Were you concerned? So uh you have this hard talk with your father, but were you concerned about acceptance from your larger church community at that point?
SPEAKER_00Yes and no. Yes, in the sense of like the people closest to me, I was. So when I was 15, I was doing the community dinners because that's where my friends were, and my friends were okay with it, but I don't know, their parents necessarily weren't. I remember at one point there was I was worried how they would react towards me and if they were going to try and like save my soul. I got this text message shortly after, like from one of the leaders being like, Hey, do you want to go grab some coffee together sometime? We've never done that before. This wasn't like routine, right? It just so happened to be after like that post was shared on social media and I had come out to my family, so I was like, No, no, I I don't want to. I don't want you to try and and change who I was because like that church community did try to change me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00At least in the beginning. It's a little different now, and I'm not that it's necessarily positive, and not that they still agree with who I am, but there's not that active attempt to try and and shift my perspective on on things or change me as a person. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um but your church did make some pretty conservative moves though. Can you talk a little bit about those?
SPEAKER_00So the United Methodist Church has recently adopted this viewpoint that the standpoint of inclusivity, they have been welcoming of LGBTQ plus individuals in their church, and they as a organization, as the religious affiliation, they uh decided that this was what they wanted to do going forward. They wanted to be more inclusive. And once that was passed, the churches who were labeled Methodist were then allowed to vote on whether they still wanted to be labeled as Methodist or if they wanted to break off from that affiliation because of this inclusivity initiative. And my uncle was the pastor at the time, or is the pastor at the time when this is happening, and he called in a community vote, and they ultimately decided to split from the United Methodist Church because of the inclusion of LGBTQ plus individuals into like their sermons and community and acceptance, and that was like a personal blow on me because I was like, now you're telling me that you're no longer associated with a group that is inclusive of me, and you're specifically stepping away because of like the community that I'm in. And I it's been hard to reconcile that because there was other like LGBTQ members in this church who were also blindsided by that, and even like their closest friends with my family have since shifted away because of that move. And we lost a good not that the community in that church was uh teeming, but what was there was already pulled away. So that challenge uh that change was a challenge, it was heartbreaking, and in in some ways it felt like a betrayal to me, not just from like my church community, but from my family, family, how and how how did they have those conversations with you?
SPEAKER_01How do they explain that positioning? And again, going back to God loves everybody, that's what we're taught, the love is unconditional, and but now you're being told accept your condition, that's that's different, and so how what is the justification for for that?
SPEAKER_00So the Methodist affiliation is very much so based on scripture and the methods within the Bible, and there are verses within the Bible that condemn homosexuality. Now, we can also say that those uh um verses are uh mistranslations of what has been said where it's talking more about pedophilia, but because of the translation issue, it appears that it's referring to homosexuality. And so they have justified it as in well, in the Bible, it says homosexuality is a sin. Um, it's an abomination, and therefore it should not be allowed in those spheres. Um and they view it not as something that you are created with, but because man, who when they were created fell short in the whole Garden of Eden thing, Eve picking the apple, eating the apple, sin brought into the world. They believe that b that action is what caused homosexuality, you know, and it wasn't inherently who you were, it wasn't something that came about, but it's something that was a sin that developed sexual immorality. There's always like the theories about something turned you gay or something, which isn't necessarily true. Um like that's not true at all. And yeah, so their justification was like, well, it's a sin, it's defined in the Bible as a sin. And as someone who follows God's word, we can't endorse sin, so we have to step away from people who are trying to endorse sin. The idea of like false prophets and whatnot is a big thing going on too. The book of Revelation talks about at the end of times there will be people preaching under God's love, but it's not what he wants, or it's the wrong version, or it's not aligned with God's values. And they believed that including homosexuality and accepting LGBTQ plus IA individuals was included in that false prophet because it didn't align with what God was saying. And so for that reason, they felt that they needed to step away from the Methodist Church as the affiliation and just move to what they were traditionally sticking with. So that was their justification. Uh that was a long-winded way. Um, and maybe I'm not entirely sure on the details because no one sat down and explained the whole workings to me. Rather, like um I caught wind of it over the phone call. And I was like, what is happening? What are what are you guys talking about? And it was like briefly explained, and I had to like search it up myself on Google about where the United Methodist Church stood, and yeah, churches were allowed to do because of that. So I don't really know the specific churches' full justification. No one ever tried to inform me of that. That's my best gathering on my research and snippets of conversation I was given. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01And so what does this do then as far as like rift, I guess, within your family? Is this approximately when you pull back and you are not going to church as much anymore? And are you like you're just not going to your uncle's church at all and you're just focused on these community dinners? Is that about that time frame?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I am an adolescent, I'm a teenager trying to figure out my place in the the world, who I am. I am going to the community dinners because, like, again, I had to go to something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I don't know, I could be preached I'm wrong for an hour and a half at church, or only be preached I'm wrong for 10 minutes at this community dinner. So yeah, you pick and choose your battles. And I was having a lot of battles at home, anyways. Like me and my dad would constantly get into fights and and arguments about what path I was going down, as he said, and what I wanted for my life. And it was love even wrong in the in the first place. And we just opposed, like we disagreed on so many issues that we were always fighting. And I remember at that time it was like, I don't know, the last interaction with it, the better. Because every time I interacted in these traditional spheres, I just felt insanely guilty and and wrong because I was one told that explicitly at home, felt that implicitly through the stares, and then just like own internal guilt. And as I've gotten older and I've been able to work through that some more in my own life, we my dad and I have sort of reached this point. We call it our truce now. Very fraught, frail truce.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00But like we're kind of at this stalemate where I'm like, dad, I don't believe who I am is wrong. I don't think I love is a sin. I don't think that I'm going to hell or what I am like choosing to love in my life, like I'm not turning away from that and I'm gonna stick with that. And he's like, and I think you're wrong, but I'm not gonna stop you anymore. And so we've reached like this tentative stalemate. I not to be political, but also to be political. I hope that's okay. Of course. I kind of feel like it's like the current stalemate ceasefire between the US and Iran. You know, we're like, we're at, we're we're at peace. We have a ceasefire and then we bomb each other sometimes. Um that's kind of what it's like, and we bomb each other.
SPEAKER_01That is that is an oddly very, very like I can see the visual of that. That is such a good analogy.
SPEAKER_00That's what I thought too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that was good. That was good. Um, yeah, so like we're because that's what I think that's what we do though, even like with our loved ones. That is something I think that happens, whether the issue is not seeing eye to eye because of what you're discussing, which is major, but it can be other major types of things and other little things. And I think that that's that's part and parcel of being family in a lot of ways. You're not always going to see eye to eye. But I just thought that that was a really good one. That was a good analogy.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we yeah, so it took us a while even to get there. And I thank my independence and going to college and the freedom to stop going to church when I turned 18 and just, I don't know, developing, growing older, maturing, realizing things about myself. I mean, I'm not 25 yet, my frontal lobe isn't fully developed. It's not when I was it's so much more developed than when I was 15. And now, like, I'm able to see more complexities of situations and understand my family's perspective on things. And though it's not perfect, I've I feel a lot of the weight of the initial struggle gone down over time, and I'm still trying to reconcile like my feelings of belonging and and faith with my identity as well. It's an ongoing process. For sure. It's a process that has gotten better over the years. My therapist and I and I always say like part of it is grieving your identity within a community that you've had for so long. Right. Grief is never linear, it's something that goes on for years and years, and it's always going to impact us. Loss in any shape and form impacts people. Yeah. But over time we just learn to live with it. And we manage we like we live alongside our grief rather than letting our grief defeat us. Yeah, I think that's fair. Yeah, and that's where I feel like I'm at now. I'm living alongside that loss and moving forward and trying to not just take it as a loss and a blow to myself, but try and pivot it into something new because I have that ability. Like, I know, compared to the loss of someone you loved, they can't come back, but my identity can shape and my identity can change. So I'm trying to reframe and build, and but also so can theirs.
SPEAKER_01So and that's and that's the thing. It's like I'm hearing you say that, and sure, that's true, because I think we we all can, right? But I think it's very telling though that that was where you started from was my identity can change, and it's not the expectation that your families will.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I think I have been grieving that too. Like sure sad that we've reached a point where we're not going to see eye to eye, and they won't do that for me. And I'm grieving the fact that they're not going to change, and it's sad because I want them to. I wish that that is how it would be, but ultimately, like that responsibility is theirs and and not mine. And if they're not going to take responsibility for changing as much as I want them to, sure. I like I can't force them to do anything.
SPEAKER_01No, you sure can't. And let's so let's talk about this. There's a couple of layers because your community is massively impacted by all of this, yeah, and it's impacted from your church community, your faith community, but it's also impacting your your family community as well. And I know you're saying that, you know, you've worked in therapy, which is fantastic. I have friends who think everybody should have therapist.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But can you share? Are there specific examples of steps that you've taken or you know, things that you do discuss in therapy without getting specific? But what are some of the steps that you've taken to try to reconcile some of these things that you're talking about? Develop other areas where you can find community, and and how are you grieving the loss of some of the community that you've had since you were a small child?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I think the biggest things that I've been understanding in my life is that faith is simply that. Faith. No one knows for certain what is right, what is wrong, what happens what we die, with ha if anything happens at all. Right. Um all of it is just this faith we have in, I don't know, a belief that maybe, you know, we're not going to just cease to exist because we don't know what's gonna happen. Death is scary, it's inevitable, it's but it's still scary. And people use faith to make sense of the unknown, make sense of things that they can't control. Uh and recognizing that my parents' viewpoints and my church's viewpoint isn't the only viewpoint, it's right like uh the way, it's still a faith, as much as like they've justified it and made sense of it themselves to sound like the way, it's not um because I don't want a way that doesn't include me just for existing. I can't believe that I'm inherently a bad person just because I love someone that doesn't fit their standards. Right. So just reckon recognizing that like their viewpoint isn't the viewpoint, and it's just what they choose to believe in to make sense of this scary, uncontrollable world has been helpful. And I'm someone who struggles with control. I worry about things that are out of my control, and most people do, I fear, but like just recognizing that this is something out of my control, and I have to be okay with the uncertainty, right? What happens after we die, if anything at all, has been helpful, and also working through the whole concept with that, like that I am not wrong, because I grew up in this belief system that to quote the scripture and the the feelings of my family all have fallen short of the glory of God, like that is what was taught growing up, and that implies that you from birth are dipped in sin, and we're taught that sin is wrong, and if we are sinful creatures, we must be wrong, and like that was my family's viewpoint growing up, and it definitely played out in how I thought of myself growing up, sure like, oh, there's something weird or wrong about me, and then when I came out, then there was something that was so that people could jump on easily and say, You're wrong, like this is a deplorable sin that you are actively participating in, and just recognizing and working through that I'm not inherently wrong, um, even though that was what my world view growing up was like who I am now is not wrong. I'm who I meant to be, and I've not done anything that would consider me wrong in anyone's standards but the church, honestly. Right. Some churches, some churches are very inclusive, some are not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Have you have you thought about exploring other denominations? I have, um, actually. I'm currently in the process of looking through and examining churches. I'm in the baby steps, trying to find that community. This one that I really like is based in Texas, which sucks because I live in New York, but I still follow them on Instagram because like I I love they recently went to like this pride parade and they had like these cute little shirts that was like be fruity, and it was like the fruits of the spirit on the back. And I was like, that's so funny, like that's so great. I loved it. They're so cool, and I think I would love to get into an organization like that, but at my current phase in life, I'm kind of just burnt out from the church. I think I need some more time before I decide that's something I want to do. But I'm still looking, yeah, because it it was very important to me. But I think in the future, when I probably have more time after graduation, and you know, we'll want a different community is something I'll probably look into a lot more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. So let's shift back to college for a second since you just brought up graduation again. Your focus is psychology, and you did a thesis paper that I think is also interesting as it pertains to what we're talking about today. Can you talk about that a little bit?
SPEAKER_00Gosh, yes, my research. So I was very interested in how peers influence religious identity development in emerging adulthood. All the literature thus far talked on adolescence and how you know, you make those peer groups, you're forming relationships, you're figuring yourself out. Everyone talks about identity formation in adolescence. But you move into college and emerging adulthood, you know, you move into college, you are solidifying your identities, you're meeting new people outside of the influence of your parents, you're becoming more independent, you're developing further.
SPEAKER_01And so and arguably for some people, it's the first time they're experiencing any type of family situation that is different from their own, belief systems that are different from their own, any type of diversity as well. So it almost makes the it's almost like a second sort of identity formation that we go through in in early adulthood.
SPEAKER_00Like a thousand percent. And the literature talks more about like it's a time where we really solidify change and make the path that we want to take. And I figured, well, why not focus on a specific factor in that, which is religious identity development? And I wanted to see further if your peers had an influence on that. So I did the more like science-y stuff, where I did like the scales and I measured your in like your relationships with your friends, your scores on like religious identity, religiosity, the commitment to the church, how important it was for you to have friends of similar faith. Like I did all the valid scales to see like the correlations and whatnot there. And that was really cool too. Like you could see that a lot of people were influenced by their closest friends, whether it was towards a religion or towards nothing at all, because Gen Z is also shifting away from religion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there were a lot of people who were like, Well, my friends aren't impacting me on my religious accounts because, well, none of us are religious. I'm like, Well, yeah, yeah. Like, okay, that's interesting too. Um, so even if it's not what you expect, it it's still something interesting. But my biggest thing that I was the most excited for in my research was narrative research. I got to ask people open-ended questions about what was important to them, how their friends have impacted it. And there's been a wide array of answers. There are some people who were like, well, like moving into college, I found this tight group of people who supported my faith. Or some people be like, I found this group of people who like we didn't like religion and now we're just, you know, moving away from it altogether. And people were opening up about their experiences of like, well, growing up in the church, like I saw a lot of hate and discrimination towards like minority groups. Like it was selective help, selective support where they discard like people of color, LGBTQ individuals, impoverished people, like you know, they were like it was discriminatory, and a lot of people moved away from that. While others were like, Well, my friends actually didn't impact me at all. We don't talk about it. So I loved seeing the breadth of differences and experiences. I think there were some trends I've noticed for sure, and I talked about that more in my my paper. Like, overall, like Gen Z is moving away from organized religion because of hate and um just past experiences that weren't great. A lot of people are switching towards atheism or agnosticism. That's a generational trend that's happening, and I was I focused on that as well. But then I also shared, like, but some people also did find a lot of value in it, and some of the times it solidified their beliefs, sometimes it changed them. And that was that was cool because I'd expected that in some ways. It's going to be unique and individualized, but just seeing how it was was like the coolest thing ever. And narrative research is really hard to conduct as one person, but it ended up being the most rewarding thing to talk about. So I I loved getting the nuances and complexities. I feel I talked about this too. I feel like those scales on how religious you are, how committed you are to religion, don't capture the nuances with it. And I think it would have been unfair to just assign someone's religious identity to I used the RCI 10, which is the religious commitment inventory 10, and the CSI 10, which is the centrality of religiosity scale, or CRS 10, sorry. But like they didn't really capture what I wanted it to.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00I I needed to do that for you know the purpose of like, I'm using valid scales and I'm trying my best, but they just don't exist. And who am I but an Elizabethtown college undergrad student giving my own scales? I'm not, I don't, I'm not credited to do that. I'm not, you know. So I gave the option of narrative research to allow that nuance to shine through because my own experience with religion is so nuanced. I'm sure other people's would be as well, too.
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. What was tell me something that really surprised you to learn? Well. Or did anything. Or did it sort of do you feel like it confirmed things you already suspected, or were there things that popped out where you were like, huh, didn't see that coming?
SPEAKER_00Honestly, it was it was the significant portion of people who are like, my friends had no influence on me at all because I don't care at all. Like we just don't talk about it at all. I was like, huh, like that's totally against everything I predicted. Because I I felt like your peers influence pretty much every aspect. Yeah. And I don't know, me and my closest friend, we talk about everything under the sun. But I guess that's not the case for everybody. And some people were talking about their friends, like, no, we don't talk about it at all. Yeah. Like, oh, okay, like that's that's cool. I sure that that can be your experience. That's fine. Yo, that's cool. But it surprised me that that wasn't just something everyone did. And I'm obviously I should have been aware of that, but I just feel like that's something I do with my my friends, and it's one of those topics that people do tend to fall on because it's so rooted in our our culture, and especially like in America, Christianity is deeply rooted in a lot of cultures and communities that even if you don't subscribe to it, it's felt in the media and in and presence of like, I don't know, values and morals and belief systems, but yeah, like I don't know. I thought because of how ingrained religion is in our culture, even if it's like lack of religion, as we've seen with Gen Z, like that would still be something people talked about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To not talk about it at all was shocked me. There was a lot of people like, nope, no impact because we don't talk about it. I was like, Yeah, yeah, that's surprising, but okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. That is really interesting. How are you? Like, I know right now you're ex you're kind of exploring, right? And you're trying to reconcile your faith with your identity. Talk a little bit about what you see are the differences between your faith and your church. And like, what are some of the things that you think you're going to be looking for outside of just general inclusivity in whatever comes next for you? What are the things that are important to you?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think a big one is this is gonna sound bad, but separ like separation of church from politics. A church community that isn't sided with a political party necessarily. I I know everything is political, everything always will be, and but it's hard to separate church from politics because if you choose to help somebody, like who you are helping will ultimately become political. They'll think, Oh, you're helping this community, Ergo, you're aligned with me. And it's it's hard to separate that now in our current culture. But I want something that isn't uh necessarily uh like donating to or profiting off of capitalizing on religion as a means to a political end. That's a big one. I want a church that is supportive of all communities. It's not just helping a specific group of people, namely a group who's white. You know, I want them to I don't know also have religious bodies that are diverse. Because of growing up in church, there were rarely few people of color. And I know there's many different forms of religion too, but I want a church that is inclusive of everyone in the community. Yeah. And supportive of human rights and issues of barriers that their members are experiencing. If their members are experiencing racism, institutionalized discrimination, like I want the church to like help them through it. And like I want to be supportive and recognizing those issues. Right. I want a church that is focused on love and prioritizes that above anything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Something that's not that doesn't feel punitive and yeah where you should be able to celebrate your faith.
SPEAKER_00A hundred percent I want it to be warm and and welcoming and I want a community. I think I want that space regardless to be shared with like minded individuals who value love and acceptance above all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which is why and I know I I mentioned this to you the last time we talked you're gonna do fine with community. I know you seek church community and great if you find it like and that's what you really want. I want that for you too but you are part of other communities and your presence there as a community builder is going to coalesce other people around you. I and I know we talked last time at great length about theater and we've not even touched on theater really this time because I was like again this is not about me and I can talk to you about Hamilton until the cows come home but that's not what this is about. But theater in and of itself is a whole community Melica what I see of what you guys do outside of performances I mean I follow you your social media accounts and you're very community minded as a collegiate organization. And so I guess as a person who's got a bunch of years behind her now I'm I'm a little further on the developmental scale than you are my my words to you are this you will form the community that you want. Don't assume that you're gonna find it somewhere go make it because you're a community maker you've got that personality type you're a critical thinker you are smart and you are a whole person outside of what everybody else is trying to tell you that you are or are not thank you.
SPEAKER_00You're welcome I I appreciate that it's yeah it's nice to hear I think I guess I am hopeful that I I will find people but you're right.
SPEAKER_01Sure and I and I hope that for you too like I don't want to negate that and I don't want it to sound like I'm negating that. I'm just saying like I'm listening to you and I'm listening to how you explore I'm listening to how you dig in for on yourself and how you see helping other people and these are all hallmarks of people that I know in my life whether they're religious or not those are characteristics of community builders they're connectors. And it's like very clear that despite the fact that you're 21 that's the path you're on you're a connector whatever that means for you you'll build community thank you. You're welcome I'll try I will try my best thank you and you're gonna help other people in those efforts as well as a therapist. That's the goal that's ultimately the goal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I just I wish whatever community I either find or build myself will have religion in it because it's something that did matter to me. And I think the values of loving another person and I want to believe that there is someone out there who built this world and is looking out for you. And like I those are ideas I want to believe that I can place my faith in a higher power that I can give my burdens and struggles to someone else. It's something I want in my life I think I want religion to be a part of it whether I find it or make it because it defined who I was growing up and when I was I know met the conditions for being in the group it was great. Now from the outsider perspective I recognize it's not great but making those communities or finding them I think I want to include it on my own terms. So yeah that's the path forward and I wish I had all the answers for the tea bags. Don't we all 100% don't we all I'm still figuring it out myself and there are some people who are further along on this journey than me. I'm not the only queer kid who grew up in a religious home. No that's true. I'm not that not the only one but there are very few who are trying to reconcile them both and I wish they figured it out too because I'm always trying to find someone who did.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think we're all kind of in it together and as I go on in my life because this is I'm not saying it's new but as more people are coming out and more comfortable and sharing their identities obviously these conflicts are going to arise and I'd say more so in the last like 20 to 30 years these issues are coming up more so than they've ever done before. So I think we're all trying to figure it out together and make something new. And I'm loving that people are making something new but I want to find something that makes sense for me too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah for sure. Yeah awesome okay as we wrap up I love to do a three good things about your week rolling seven days but just think of it as it could be three small things big things whatever has made you smile excited joyful at peace in the last week well actually I had a really community filled week this week I'm gonna share about the three different groups of people who have made my life exponentially better.
SPEAKER_00So I got to see some of my friends from home this weekend from New York PA were all over the place this summer. They have gotten jobs up in Penn State some of them go to Penn State and we're all busy and we haven't been able to connect in a while because of the school year um because of our now geographical differences our job schedules and whatnot but I got to see them this weekend. I got to hang out with them do fun adult things together. Yeah 21 you know just hang out and and connect reconnect um because they're people who I imagine being friends with for a very very long time yeah there's they're those the connections that I want to keep I don't doubt that we're gonna make it for the the rest of our lives together. So it was nice to see those uh those people I saw one of my best friends from college too she lives in Jersey and literally I got back from Penn State packed my car and went down to Jersey to go see my friend we actually had a lesbian beach day. Excellent yes it was in Asbury State Park it was lesbian beach hangout day and we were we were we were so awkward getting there we were like hey you guys the lesbians they're like yes yes wow we had a lesbian beach day and it was so fun uh I got totally burnt but it was so worth it because I got to see one of my best friends in the entire world I love her to death and then I got to meet a whole bunch of people and even though they were lesbians from New Jersey and I don't live in New Jersey at least I got to meet other lesbians like that's a whole community right there it is a whole community yes and sometimes our community isn't close to us sometimes geographically they're far away but they're still community they were so cool. So shout out to the New Jersey lesbians if you're listening to this podcast and then my third one I went on a date yesterday with this girl I'm seeing yes yes really awesome we got froyo and McDonald's and she's amazing and spectacular and hopefully I will get to ask her to be my girlfriend. That's the plan and she knows this is happening by the way okay okay this is not like new I know I was like am I gonna have to cut stuff no not cut somehow like she knows it's gonna happen. Okay um I just like like we had a conversation about and I was like no I actually want to like do like I wanna make it a big deal. Yeah no and I had this plan but like it can't happen yet because I need to like I need to execute the plan. Yeah yeah I gotta get the things there are steps there are steps for you. There are steps for this to happen. So that was exciting I got to see her and then I'm going to see her this weekend too.
SPEAKER_01Nice and is this new new or is this somebody that you've like known has been in your sphere for a bit no actually this is like almost almost two months of just knowing her as a person.
SPEAKER_00So she's very new about this but we have made a good connection already amazing I think I want to keep that connection and grow it into something more so yeah that's been a highlight of my week I love that I love that those are three great things three great things awesome well thank you so much for doing this with me.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate just how open like that you are about all of this and speaking about your journey and your exploration and I just wish you a lot of luck in finding whatever it is in a community that you're looking for.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I I appreciate it thank you for having me and giving me the space to talk about things that matter to me and make me tick as a person and shape our lives. I love talking about experiences. If I was truly a therapist I'd ask you all these questions too I know this is your podcast and it's time um and I really am grateful that you gave me an opportunity to share my story. Awesome. It's not always met with unconditional positive regard as we say nice to see that other people are willing to hear it out too.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate you thank you it's been so wonderful meeting you too nice meeting you too out my beautiful wonderful